BMC 525 Farthing - looking for a very rough valuation

[Master Jmd 90]

Hello everyone. It's fantastic to see this place is still going strong after all these years. I hope everyone is doing really well.

14 years ago I packed my collection into a box and hauled it up into a far corner of my parents' attic before moving out to go to university. Shamefully the box has remained in the same place ever since - that is until a couple of days ago when I finally decided to move it all over to my own house.

Back in 2004 when Colin Cooke's collection went up for sale I had put away just enough pocket money to be able to buy just one coin, the BMC 525 1673 both obverse stops omitted farthing:

I don't remember why I wanted this coin in particular, but it's my favourite piece in the small collection I have, and I have no intention of parting with it.

What I am curious about is its value.

After a very small amount of research I'm aware of 2 semi-recent London Coins BMC 525 farthing sales:

• In Auction A151 (December 2015; lot 2310) a "better than Fine, bold and clear, superior to the Cooke collection example" sold for £200;
• In Auction A167 (December 2019; lot 2415) a "this example certainly compares favourably with the Cooke collection example" with an unfortunate verdigris splodge sold for £220.

The December 2015 London Coins example was sold on at some point on the Coins and Banknotes website for £495 (link) which has no dates present. Considering this website has only been live since May 2020 I can only assume this was a relatively recent sale.

I don't know how important pedigrees are any more in the coin collecting world, but Colin Cooke's website notes that this particular example is from the CDC Collection (I'm not sure what that is), acquired November 1975. The envelope I received with the coin (pictured below) states that it's also ex. G. Kay (1988) and P. W. Lawrence (1996). Naturally it's also ex. Colin Cooke (2004).

I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that it's probably somewhere in the region of £300, but it'd be great to get an expert opinion!

I know collectibles have been on a bit of a rollercoaster recently with price rises and falls, and I'm sure coins are no exception.

[PWA 1967 2,213]

Is there anything else you are interested in and maybe missed ?

[Coppers 58]

Welcome back!

[Rob 3,185]

Hello stranger.

CDC is Colin Cooke's initials.

[Master Jmd 90]

1 hour ago, Rob said:

Hello stranger.

CDC is Colin Cooke's initials.

Hey!

I had originally assumed that would be the case but I'm a bit confused that their website says it was acquired for his collection in 1975 but that it's also from a 1988 and 1996 sale - unless I'm misunderstanding what "ex. {name}" means on that envelope?

I guess that's something I may need to reach out to Lee to ask about. It's amazing that his website is also still going strong.

[TomGoodheart 407]

Greetings and welcome back JMD!

 

[Rob 3,185]

2 hours ago, Master Jmd said:

Hey!

I had originally assumed that would be the case but I'm a bit confused that their website says it was acquired for his collection in 1975 but that it's also from a 1988 and 1996 sale - unless I'm misunderstanding what "ex. {name}" means on that envelope?

I guess that's something I may need to reach out to Lee to ask about. It's amazing that his website is also still going strong.

The writing at the top of the envelope says specimens known to us

[1949threepence 3,368]

12 hours ago, Master Jmd said:

Hello everyone. It's fantastic to see this place is still going strong after all these years. I hope everyone is doing really well.

14 years ago I packed my collection into a box and hauled it up into a far corner of my parents' attic before moving out to go to university. Shamefully the box has remained in the same place ever since - that is until a couple of days ago when I finally decided to move it all over to my own house.

Back in 2004 when Colin Cooke's collection went up for sale I had put away just enough pocket money to be able to buy just one coin, the BMC 525 1673 both obverse stops omitted farthing:

I don't remember why I wanted this coin in particular, but it's my favourite piece in the small collection I have, and I have no intention of parting with it.

What I am curious about is its value.

After a very small amount of research I'm aware of 2 semi-recent London Coins BMC 525 farthing sales:

• In Auction A151 (December 2015; lot 2310) a "better than Fine, bold and clear, superior to the Cooke collection example" sold for £200;
• In Auction A167 (December 2019; lot 2415) a "this example certainly compares favourably with the Cooke collection example" with an unfortunate verdigris splodge sold for £220.

The December 2015 London Coins example was sold on at some point on the Coins and Banknotes website for £495 (link) which has no dates present. Considering this website has only been live since May 2020 I can only assume this was a relatively recent sale.

I don't know how important pedigrees are any more in the coin collecting world, but Colin Cooke's website notes that this particular example is from the CDC Collection (I'm not sure what that is), acquired November 1975. The envelope I received with the coin (pictured below) states that it's also ex. G. Kay (1988) and P. W. Lawrence (1996). Naturally it's also ex. Colin Cooke (2004).

 

I'm going to take a wild guess and assume that it's probably somewhere in the region of £300, but it'd be great to get an expert opinion!

I know collectibles have been on a bit of a rollercoaster recently with price rises and falls, and I'm sure coins are no exception.

I reckon one of the real strengths of this forum is it's unchanging continuity and very light touch moderation. Apart from one or two technical bells and whistles, I'd say it was virtually the same as when you last posted in 2008. I joined in 2009. 

With regard to the coin's value, I can't really help as I'm not a farthing specialist. All I can say is that Peck lists BMC 525 as "extremely rare". Given the auctions you mention above and the recent rise in coin prices, probably £300 is close to the mark. 

I'd say provenance or pedigrees are still very important. Collectors really value provenance, especially those that go back a very long way. The one you have, albeit scribbled out long hand, is very detailed and comprehensive.  

ETA: by the way I'd just add that with regard to the Coins and Banknotes specimen, Eddie Price does tend to charge top dollar for his stock. He does have some very very high end stuff though, and I notice that the ex Bamford F21 penny he was offering for £2,750, has now disappeared from his website. It doesn't say sold out, it's gone altogether.   

Edited October 7, 2022 by 1949threepence

[Michael-Roo 782]

While provenance and pedigree will always carry a premium it is terribly important to grade accurately when assessing value. The two examples sold through LCA were accurately graded by them as 'bold fine' and 'better than fine and bold', though the latter had inexplicably been rebadged as near extremely fine when offered for sale by Coins and Banknotes. If you compare your own coin with the two LCA coins you will see immediately it had been overgraded when sold to you as 'a bold fine'. My own assessment of your farthing would be no higher than very good (VG).

With regards to scarcity, these are not the 'extremely rare' variety they were once thought to be and while those in grades above fine will always be sought after and achieve decent prices mediocre examples are not difficult to find. I have five 1673 no obverse stops farthings in grades fair to very fine+ and with both reverse dies for normal and wide dates. Joe Lee (farthingshalfpennyerrors.com) also has five in grades good fair to good fine+.

As for value, my advice would be look to the LCA sales and adjust downward accordingly. There's one on eBay (wide date), which is a little better than yours, being offered for £190 but the listing has been there forever and I doubt it will sell at that price. You'll see I've included photos of three of my five with this mail. These I grade 1) near fine 2) bold fine 3) very fine+. Last year I had the near fine coin listed on eBay starting at what I considered a very fair £95. After several months of no interest, and after having reduced the price to £75, I cancelled the listing.

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Michael-Roo

[Michael-Roo 782]

This is the 1673 'no obverse stops' farthing from the Colin Cooke collection. Graded Fine, which clearly it isn't.

Comparable to your coin, though the reverse looks a little better. I'm having difficulty matching the two from the photos. Are you sure they are one and the same?

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Michael-Roo

[Peckris 2 2,163]

Wow! I remember you from when I joined in the mid-Noughties under a username I've since forgotten. The site software was more primitive back then IIRC. However it's been much the same for the past 10 years or so (I'm both Peckris and Peckris 2).

Colin Cooke grade their best items quite accurately I'd say, but Fine has been their Achilles Heel - a general grade they use for all coins Fine or less, as long as the legend is complete. I'd agree with the consensus that your farthing was overgraded, but hopefully your visit here will reignite your passion for collecting.

[Master Jmd 90]

18 hours ago, Michael-Roo said:

This is the 1673 'no obverse stops' farthing from the Colin Cooke collection. Graded Fine, which clearly it isn't.

Comparable to your coin, though the reverse looks a little better. I'm having difficulty matching the two from the photos. Are you sure they are one and the same?

I still have the receipt from when I bought it (Mrs L. E. D being my mother), though I do agree it looks more worn now which is odd. I'm certain I would have placed it directly into the capsule it's now in as soon as it arrived and left it in there - though I was 13 when the purchase was made so I suppose there's always a change I mishandled it. 😮

Here are some slightly better pictures:

 

It makes a lot of sense that more of them would be known now. I imagine the increased use of the internet made a drastic change to the perceived rarity of a lot of different coins. The examples you have are certainly in better condition - great to see so many of them in one post!

 

Edited October 8, 2022 by Master Jmd

[Master Jmd 90]

18 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

Wow! I remember you from when I joined in the mid-Noughties under a username I've since forgotten. The site software was more primitive back then IIRC. However it's been much the same for the past 10 years or so (I'm both Peckris and Peckris 2).

Colin Cooke grade their best items quite accurately I'd say, but Fine has been their Achilles Heel - a general grade they use for all coins Fine or less, as long as the legend is complete. I'd agree with the consensus that your farthing was overgraded, but hopefully your visit here will reignite your passion for collecting.

Hey!

I'm trying hard not to rekindle my passion for farthings as I don't think my wallet would appreciate it, though it is a bit difficult seeing all the different coins I have! I've been collecting Pokémon cards for many years now and often see coins pop up for sale on US auction houses like Heritage - I tend to get sucked into looking at all of the weird and wonderful examples they have and get very nostalgic.

It's amazing that this forum still exists - I was very much expecting to see some generic This website is for sale! banner or a note about how the website shut down 10 years ago, so to see it both still up and active is incredible. What a wonderful resource - though I don't dare read through my old posts as I'm sure a lot of them will be very awkward and cringeworthy now. 😅

[jelida 1,366]

You clearly bought it from Colin Cooke, but it is not the ‘Colin Cooke Collection’ coin, No 4 on Lee’s list on the envelope. Lee states it is probably coin 1 or 3 in the list, most likely 3, sold by Spink in 1966. The only thing you can really be sure of is the actual provenance Lee gives, to which you can add ‘ex Colin Cooke Coins’ and the date of purchase. I don’t think that you need to worry that you have mishandled it.  A perfectly collectable coin, and rare though as usual there are more examples out there than the cataloguers are aware of. 
And welcome back to coin collecting, I started in my early teens, pretty much stopped in my late 20’s, and interest (fanaticism?) was re-kindled in my ‘50’s and persists undiminished. If you buy wisely, and grade should always be a major priority, a collection should be an enjoyment and an investment - but not your only one!

Jerry

[Michael-Roo 782]

The notes on the envelope look to be in Colin Cooke's hand.

 

[Master Jmd 90]

32 minutes ago, jelida said:

You clearly bought it from Colin Cooke, but it is not the ‘Colin Cooke Collection’ coin...

 

9 minutes ago, Michael-Roo said:

The notes on the envelope look to be in Colin Cooke's hand.

I've just done some digging and it turns out you're both correct! Colin's collection didn't go on sale until February 2006. All this time I've believed that my coin was the one from his collection, and even that I chose the coin specifically out of his collection, and yet I acquired the coin almost 2 years prior to his collection going up for sale.

It's interesting then that the Colin Cooke collection page mentions one example of the coin being sold by Colin Cooke in 1999, but not this one from 2004. I guess perhaps those were from Colin's own notes and the entry for this coin hadn't been updated.

Well this is embarrassing and confusing, but thank you for pointing this out! I definitely did buy something from his collection, but it obviously wasn't this!

I assume < £200 is a more accurate valuation in this case?

Edited October 8, 2022 by Master Jmd

[Michael-Roo 782]

To be frank I think £200 would be optimistic and I doubt you'd even get back the £155 you paid eighteen years ago. But you're not looking to sell so value doesn't really matter.

Remember, this one of mine, a little better than yours and sitting in a world wide shop window, didn't sell at £75.

 

 

[Michael-Roo 782]

The reverse:

 

[Master Jmd 90]

1 hour ago, Michael-Roo said:

To be frank I think £200 would be optimistic and I doubt you'd even get back the £155 you paid eighteen years ago. But you're not looking to sell so value doesn't really matter.

Hoping my grandkids will one day appreciate them, so definitely not parting with them if I don't have to. 🙂

After a bit of digging I think I've found the coin I bought from Colin's collection, this BMC 70 James I Lennox Farthing (#991 on the collection website):

Do please let me know if those aren't the same, but I'm fairly certain they are. Unfortunately despite having extensive documentation of all my 2004 and 2005 purchases, I appear to have nothing from 2006.

I'd completely forgotten I had this coin altogether. I guess 1613 (James I - although I'm aware this post-1613) and 1673 are similar enough numbers and in my head at some point I started associating the 1673 farthing with Colin's collection instead of this one. I should probably try to source a tighter capsule for it so it doesn't shake around as much.

[Michael-Roo 782]

Yes, that's the collection coin, and what a beauty it is.

A keeper!

[copper123 1,536]

I agree while the charles II series has been very popular over the last twenty years its mostly been the silver and gold, coppers have been left out in the cold a bit - the exception is high grade  halfpence and good attractive farthings .

Unfortunately error and mistake  coins have never really joined the party not sure why I surpose its because its always been a niche market  . Ie everyone wants a high grade charles II as a type coin  but few specialise in the more interesting errors

[oldcopper 286]

23 hours ago, copper123 said:

I agree while the charles II series has been very popular over the last twenty years its mostly been the silver and gold, coppers have been left out in the cold a bit - the exception is high grade  halfpence and good attractive farthings .

Unfortunately error and mistake  coins have never really joined the party not sure why I surpose its because its always been a niche market  . Ie everyone wants a high grade charles II as a type coin  but few specialise in the more interesting errors

One reason could be that there have been hardly any 17th century mis-spellings in even half-decent condition (ie as good as they come) on the market in the last 15 years. I can't speak so much for farthings, or transactions via less high-profile dealers but to the best of my knowledge here are the last appearances for the best halfpenny ones:

1699 TERTVS - 2006 (Gregory I) Peck Plate Coin. Best known

1696 TERTVS - 2012 (Lockdales, ex Nicholson) Peck Plate Coin. Best known

1699 GVILELMVS - 2004 (Nicholson). Best known

1700 GVLIEEMVS - ~2007/8 (Baldwins). VF -GVF, better condition than the other mispellings listed here.

1699 GVLIEMVS - 2004 (Nicholson). Best known

The 1700 GVLIELMS variety generally turns up in similar condition but only ~ Fine or less - I've got one about 15 years ago not too inferior to the Peck Plate Coin for about £70.

1672 CRAOLVS - 2007 (DNW, not admitted as, but is the Peck Plate coin). Best known

1673 CRAOLVS - 2004 (Nicholson - perhaps not quite as good detail as the SNC 1994 one, but best sold since).

Peck's 1699 GVLIEMVS Plate coin sat around for years in the Baldwins trays after it didn't sell at one of their Gregory auctions - it was very ropey though!

Though I know much less about farthings, the 1697 GVLIELMS in lustrous, virtually mint state (DNW, 2010) though not struck up at the bottom of the bust or Brit's head due to an uneven flan) must be the finest known of all the 17th century copper mis-spellings, by a mile.

[oldcopper 286]

Here's a nice 1673 one ex Noble Numismatics auction 3 or 4 years ago. They didn't notice it either.

[copper123 1,536]

21 hours ago, oldcopper said:

Here's a nice 1673 one ex Noble Numismatics auction 3 or 4 years ago. They didn't notice it either.Looks like something going on with with the r on the obverse as well