1863 F47 - die No 4 under date. Did anybody here win this?

[1949threepence 3,368]

Well worn coin, nay washer. But excessively rare.

I just didn't bid enough, unfortunately, and had no time to recover and make a higher bid.

link

[Iannich48 202]

£1100, more than I would have thought.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Iannich48

[1949threepence 3,368]

1 hour ago, Iannich48 said:

£1100, more than I would have thought.

The Waterbird specimen, which for a die No 4, is actually quite a reasonable specimen, looks a bargain for £2480 (admittedly 3 years ago)

[Iannich48 202]

It certainly does. 

[blakeyboy 1,814]

Hmm...if you search for that coin on ebay, it doesn't come up- only Mike's link works...strange....

[Bernie 214]

You may find that you have to tick the completed or sold items box to view finished item numbers.

[blakeyboy 1,814]

err...yeah...but  that doesn't work.

Searching for "1863 freeman 47" doesn't work either.

Clicking on 'see more items' reveals his current sales, but then clicking 'completed'

doesn't show this 1863 penny.

It's just vanished, unless, ;like Mike, you have a direct link...very odd...

[1949threepence 3,368]

49 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

err...yeah...but  that doesn't work.

Searching for "1863 freeman 47" doesn't work either.

Clicking on 'see more items' reveals his current sales, but then clicking 'completed'

doesn't show this 1863 penny.

It's just vanished, unless, ;like Mike, you have a direct link...very odd...

The link I used was the one I saved to my desktop in order to bid. But yes you're right, even an advanced search trying sold and completed listing reveals nothing. Bit odd, buy hopefully a logical explanation. 

[Peckris 2 2,194]

On 10/17/2022 at 2:41 PM, Iannich48 said:

£1100, more than I would have thought.

I think you've put a comma in there by mistake...

[1949threepence 3,368]

Interestingly, there's 10 on Richard's rare penny list (including this one), and of that 10, six are more or less washers. So if you see one for sale, it's more probable than not it will be a clear date washer, and you're going to have to pay.

In his book "The British Bronze Penny 1860 to 1901",  Gouby said there were 15 known in his 2009 pricing and rarity pages. But at page 48 of his 2020 amendments, he says there are 8+ known.    

 

[secret santa 2,384]

There's another one in the next Noonan's auction.

[Iannich48 202]

8 hours ago, secret santa said:

There's another one in the next Noonan's auction.

Graded as about fine, i would say overgraded, but still very decent for this type.

[Martinminerva 355]

59 minutes ago, Iannich48 said:

9 hours ago, secret santa said:

There's another one in the next Noonan's auction.

Graded as about fine, i would say overgraded, but still very decent for this type

Can someone post a picture? Or a link?

[Michael-Roo 783]

8 minutes ago, Martinminerva said:

Can someone post a picture? Or a link?

'About Fine'? I think not.

 

[1949threepence 3,368]

2 hours ago, Iannich48 said:

Graded as about fine, i would say overgraded, but still very decent for this type.

Yeah, it's well sub fine, but as you say, it's much better than most of the washers for this type.

 

[1949threepence 3,368]

List and pics of (pretty much) all the known 1863 die No 4 under date pennies

Courtesy of Richard @secret santa

 

[1949threepence 3,368]

Something I've noticed is that the die number itself seems to increase in thickness from 2 through to 4, with the 2 being quite faint, and the 4 being quite noticeable (thicker, more solid). Perhaps similarly the 5.

Maybe there were Die No 1 specimens, but the impression of the 1 was so faint that it wore off completely over time, and none were ever recognised. 

 It might also go some way to explaining why all the Die No 2 examples are relatively much higher grade than 3 and especially 4. Although I appreciate there is an obvious flaw in that logic.

[alfnail 873]

I sold this one in December 2015 for £870. Don't recognize it on Richard's site; apologies for not notifying sooner.

I remember that I bought this Die 4 on the same day that I found an 1861 F27 on ebay; think that was my best ever bargain day!!

 

[1949threepence 3,368]

10 minutes ago, alfnail said:

I sold this one in December 2015 for £870. Don't recognize it on Richard's site; apologies for not notifying sooner.

I remember that I bought this Die 4 on the same day that I found an 1861 F27 on ebay; think that was my best ever bargain day!!

 

 

Now that's what I call genuine luck, Ian. 

[Iannich48 202]

2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Something I've noticed is that the die number itself seems to increase in thickness from 2 through to 4, with the 2 being quite faint, and the 4 being quite noticeable (thicker, more solid). Perhaps similarly the 5.

Maybe there were Die No 1 specimens, but the impression of the 1 was so faint that it wore off completely over time, and none were ever recognised. 

 It might also go some way to explaining why all the Die No 2 examples are relatively much higher grade than 3 and especially 4. Although I appreciate there is an obvious flaw in that logic.

I like that theory.

[1949threepence 3,368]

19 hours ago, Iannich48 said:

I like that theory.

Thanks.

There are also distinct patterns of wear apparent in dies 3 & 4 (not die 2 as the known specimens are in a better state of preservation). On the die 3 examples, the reverse fields show a common pattern of wear, extending down to affect the ship and lighthouse, and on the die 4 examples, the word "ONE" on the reverse shows consistent signs of wearing away.  

 

[1949threepence 3,368]

The LCA December catalogue is out, and I see there is yet another clear date only 1863 F47 die No 4 under date on offer.

@secret santa - Richard, I don't think it's on your rarest penny list as there is a distinct mark to the right of the 8 of the date, which is absent on your examples.

link to the coin

 

[secret santa 2,384]

4 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Richard, I don't think it's on your rarest penny list

Now added - thanks Mike.