Some Help Please Charles II shilling 3rd issue

[DrLarry 443]

Could you please help me out ...I do try hard with these hammered coins but dont seem to get too far.  

In general I quite like the overall look but up above the portrait there are tool marks and the legend is "damaged"  the old ticket from SPINK does not mention anything.  Please could the experts in pre milled silver help me with your opinion ....I am assuming it may have been a touch piece ...  Many thanks 

Edited February 19, 2023 by DrLarry

[Rob 3,220]

Portrait is fairly flat, which is typical. Is there any trace of solder from a suspension mount on either side or the edge? Spink ticket and price suggests it will probably be in the Circular, but when? I'd have to plough through them to find out.

I can't see any case for it being a touchpiece, as these were typically angels - the combination of saint and king provided the cure and/or protection . The milled Charles II touchpieces were produced later than this coin

FWIW, this is my 3rd issue shilling. Again, flat in parts, though the portrait is above average.

[TomGoodheart 434]

Paul Dawson's writing on the ticket, so pre 1997, when he took over his father's business.
Not sure if he worked for Spink after 1985 which is when he joined his Dad. Still quite a wide date range I'm afraid ..

[DrLarry 443]

the reverse of the ticket is SPK 20098/125   does that give any further information ? I cannot see any trace of solder that I would recognise just a series of tool marks in one direction.  I suppose it may have been clipped a little  the reverse mint mark crown is very strong do you think that weak area may just be a strike issue? 

[DrLarry 443]

6 hours ago, Rob said:

Portrait is fairly flat, which is typical. Is there any trace of solder from a suspension mount on either side or the edge? Spink ticket and price suggests it will probably be in the Circular, but when? I'd have to plough through them to find out.

I can't see any case for it being a touchpiece, as these were typically angels - the combination of saint and king provided the cure and/or protection . The milled Charles II touchpieces were produced later than this coin

FWIW, this is my 3rd issue shilling. Again, flat in parts, though the portrait is above average.

I never thought of the provenance in the circular ...  

[DrLarry 443]

3 hours ago, TomGoodheart said:

Paul Dawson's writing on the ticket, so pre 1997, when he took over his father's business.
Not sure if he worked for Spink after 1985 which is when he joined his Dad. Still quite a wide date range I'm afraid ..

You are always good at knowing these old tickets it shows being an amateur what is lacking in any experience I have 

[Coinery 1,247]

I personally don’t see the marks you speak of as being tooling. Equally I don’t, based on the images provided, feel the ‘issue’ is anything other than flan and strike anomalies? Hopefully, if you get lucky enough to find some further provenance, you may either get this confirmed or denied?

[TomGoodheart 434]

13 hours ago, DrLarry said:

the reverse of the ticket is SPK 20098/125   does that give any further information ? I cannot see any trace of solder that I would recognise just a series of tool marks in one direction.  I suppose it may have been clipped a little  the reverse mint mark crown is very strong do you think that weak area may just be a strike issue? 

August 2009 #125?  Afraid I don't have copies for that year. @Rob might?

[DrLarry 443]

53 minutes ago, TomGoodheart said:

August 2009 #125?  Afraid I don't have copies for that year. @Rob might?

thanks for taking a look 

[DrLarry 443]

On 2/19/2023 at 4:21 PM, Rob said:

Portrait is fairly flat, which is typical. Is there any trace of solder from a suspension mount on either side or the edge? Spink ticket and price suggests it will probably be in the Circular, but when? I'd have to plough through them to find out.

I can't see any case for it being a touchpiece, as these were typically angels - the combination of saint and king provided the cure and/or protection . The milled Charles II touchpieces were produced later than this coin

FWIW, this is my 3rd issue shilling. Again, flat in parts, though the portrait is above average.

Tom mentioned that you might have the catalogues for August 2009 # 125 well he said to ask at least ...thanks 

[oldcopper 286]

On 2/19/2023 at 6:38 PM, TomGoodheart said:

Paul Dawson's writing on the ticket, so pre 1997, when he took over his father's business.
Not sure if he worked for Spink after 1985 which is when he joined his Dad. Still quite a wide date range I'm afraid ..

He joined Spink for several years in the mid-2000's until his tragic car accident, which killed his girlfriend and must have led to his early death. The SNC didn't last much longer after that.

https://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v14n24a09.html

Edited February 21, 2023 by oldcopper

[DrLarry 443]

3 hours ago, oldcopper said:

He joined Spink for several years in the mid-2000's until his tragic car accident, which killed his girlfriend and must have led to his early death. The SNC didn't last much longer after that.

https://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v14n24a09.html

sounds awful 

Edited February 21, 2023 by DrLarry

[copper123 1,555]

He looked ok a few years ago when i saw him in york I even mentioned his father to him and how fond I was of him.

 

[DrLarry 443]

2 hours ago, copper123 said:

He looked ok a few years ago when i saw him in york I even mentioned his father to him and how fond I was of him.

 

do any of us ever know the complexity of the mind and the impact of such painful events.  It is nice that you all with the history of these events can remember and share them I suppose that is a uniquely human quality ( not memory and passing the essentials on) but the learning that grows from each event and each interaction.  

[DrLarry 443]

On 2/19/2023 at 11:40 PM, Coinery said:

I personally don’t see the marks you speak of as being tooling. Equally I don’t, based on the images provided, feel the ‘issue’ is anything other than flan and strike anomalies? Hopefully, if you get lucky enough to find some further provenance, you may either get this confirmed or denied?

this just looked like a file had been taken to it 

[Coinery 1,247]

17 hours ago, DrLarry said:

this just looked like a file had been taken to it 

I believe this to be nothing more than a small gouge. The flan stress marks, which still exist beneath it, reassure me there’d be no rationale for using a file in that particular location.

Just a personal opinion, though  

I personally find your earlier picture a better one for looking at this issue.

[DrLarry 443]

3 hours ago, Coinery said:

I believe this to be nothing more than a small gouge. The flan stress marks, which still exist beneath it, reassure me there’d be no rationale for using a file in that particular location.

Just a personal opinion, though  

I personally find your earlier picture a better one for looking at this issue.

OK great this puts my mind at rest.  As I have said I only collect in order to leave the collections for the charity and would rather deal with these questions now than to leave the potential problem for others when they sell it.  Many thanks 

Edited February 23, 2023 by DrLarry