The slabbing debate

[Sylvester 59]

Don't get me started on slabbing...

Slabs are one of the stupidest ideas besides their foreign policy that the Americans have exported in years.

I've argued with many over slabbing but even the US ones luke warm on the idea still defend it due to...

"it stops you getting ripped off".

There's only one thing in this world that stops you getting ripped off and that knowing what you're doing. Educated numismatists that know their fields will very rarely lose out, unless it's a really, really good fake of course that fools dealers. But of course many seem to think that slabbing companies are infallible as if even they couldn't be fooled from time to time!

Slabbing just makes the 'investment' side of coins open to a wider more uneducated audience. Which to me is pointless and best avoided.

It's better to have fewer quality members, than a swarm of those only interested in making a quick buck out of it, they afterall don't love coins.

[krasnaya_vityaz 0]

[

I've argued with many over slabbing but even the US ones luke warm on the idea still defend it due to...

"it stops you getting ripped off".

There's only one thing in this world that stops you getting ripped off and that knowing what you're doing. Educated numismatists that know their fields will very rarely lose out, unless it's a really, really good fake of course that fools dealers. But of course many seem to think that slabbing companies are infallible as if even they couldn't be fooled from time to time!

Slabbing just makes the 'investment' side of coins open to a wider more uneducated audience. Which to me is pointless and best avoided.

It's better to have fewer quality members, than a swarm of those only interested in making a quick buck out of it, they afterall don't love coins.

Slabbing is essentially dumbing down collecting. I don' trust some idiot in a slabbing company to determine whether or not I like a coin. Only I can.

I have seen some very high graded coins in plastic coffins that were quite ugly.

[Geoff T 3]

There are numerous reasons why the whole idea of slabbing turns me off, but surely the most important is that coins are a tactile thing. We handle them every day, and even if they're rare or valuable we want to be able to experience them through touch as well as sight. I think "coffin" is the right term; a slabbed coin is a dead coin.

G

[wybrit 2]

I am one of those American idiots of which you speak. In fact, I live in the numismatic wasteland that is known as Minnesota, where I am lucky to see no more than a handful of quality British coins on display each year. This means much of my purchasing is done over the 'net.

Like you, I view slabs as plastic tombs. An overwhelming majority of my coins are and will remain unslabbed. When I am at shows or in shops, I will buy any coin I like, because I can look at it first. Just because a slab has some high grade on it does not make it a good coin. In fact, many slabbing companies are still learning how to grade non-US coins.

There is one problem, however - buying coins on ebay. Many online sellers have turned to the tactic of cleaning/whizzing coins and then passing them off as "brilliant uncirculated" or "toned" (actually retoned). Pictures fail to capture cleaning or artificial lustre problems unless the coin is photographed at the proper angle.

Well over 50% of the coins I bought online in 2004 were cleaned or whizzed, including those I purchased from UK sellers, even some "reputable" ones. No one offers refunds of wasted postage finding this out, so I am out a lot of time and money making returns. I also had some returns go "missing" on their way back.

I got fed up with it all and vowed that with few exceptions (such as Colin Cooke or members of the CU forum), I would buy only slabbed coins from ebay sellers in 2005. PCGS and NGC do not slab cleaned coins.

Another fact, whether one likes it or not, is that slabbed coins more than return the investment made to grade them if and when it is time to sell. It appears that others besides myself, including many British buyers, have more confidence in a slabbed coin when the selling venue is online. Posting good pictures is necessary but in the end is only one of the factors in making a decent sale.

Anyway, slabbed coins can be cracked out of their holders.

[krasnaya_vityaz 0]

Anyway, slabbed coins can be cracked out of their holders.

Oh... right now I have a Scottish Groat of David II:

http://www.geocities.com/scottishmoney/coi...vidii2nd4dl.jpg

Unfortunately this thing is in a plastic coffin that I am afraid of damaging the coin in the effort to get it out.

The only thing I can fathom would work is to use a small vice and carefully wrap the "slab" in a hand towel or something and slowly compress the vice. I have the tools but still don't want to risk damaging what maybe the best known example of this coin.

It is in an Anacs slab, and was bought from well known dealer in Massachusetts USA. I don't regret the purchase, I am happy with it even years later, I just wish it was not in the slab.

Just my opinion, but more collectors prefer raw coins, and investors prefer slabbed coins.

[Geordie582 18]

I think wybrit hit the nail on the head when he said "slabbed coins more than return the investment made to grade them if and when it is time to sell." I have yet to meet a British Numismatist that is interested in renumeration. All have been totally immersed in the history. Perhaps as I am a Celtic/Roman/Saxon/hammered collector I am biassed? And slabbing has no part in hammered as the grade is subjective.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Geordie582

[Sylvester 59]

Touche Geordie!

Oh yeah i've sold many coins but usually at a loss, am i bothered, well no not really. I don't expect to sell my mini disc player for a profit so why should a coin be any different? Yet i enjoy owning and spending time with both.

I think this is also the reason why i moved to hammered, more subjective, more unique, more history. Milled coins whilst still unique individuals tend to be more like an army than say a village. Confused?

Well soldiers all dress the same even if they are individuals and thus give a sense of uniformity. Whilst in your average village similar people come in all shapes and sizes.

Well to me these days milled coins seem much of a blah... yawn.

But the odd one still catches my eye from time to time.

[mint_mark 10]

There are numerous reasons why the whole idea of slabbing turns me off, but surely the most important is that coins are a tactile thing.  We handle them every day, and even if they're rare or valuable we want to be able to experience them through touch as well as sight.  I think "coffin" is the right term; a slabbed coin is a dead coin.

G

I agree with this sentiment... and sound too. I sometimes take a few coins in my hand and imagine what it must have been like paying for things, or counting out change from a pocketful. What was the sound of half crowns being counted, that must have been common in shops and banks at one time?

[wybrit 2]

I think wybrit hit the nail on the head when he said "slabbed coins more than return the investment made to grade them if and when it is time to sell. I have yet to meet a British Numismatist that is interested in renumeration. "

That's an argument that I have often made, especially when I was younger. Alas, reality must set in at some point.

(1) There are loads of "British numismatists interested in renumeration." Unless you received your coins as a gift or an inheritance, you wouldn't have the quality collections you do have without these numismatists. The ones I have met desire to sell at a profit or at least to cover all expenses, including food and shelter.

(2) I, like many British numismatists, buy upgrades on coins I own and sell the previous bests. Most of us have to do that or we would run out of money quickly. I saw a very nice 1903 halfpenny up on ebay just recently from one of the members of this forum. Is he not a British numismatist?

(3) As much as I would like to hold on to my collection unto death, I do not want my heirs burdened with the task of selling the coins (unless there is geniune interest on their part), so at some point I will have to sell (quite a bit sooner than some of you will). Some of the more expensive ones will go into slabs unless someone makes me a fair offer. When I do sell, I will want the most I can get. I doubt anyone here would do anything else at the same point in their lives.

more collectors prefer raw coins, and investors prefer slabbed coins.

I can't dispute that point. That's the main reason I personally dislike slabs. I don't buy coins as an investment. Coins make a poor investment choice except for the very (usually, lucky) few, in my opinion. Unfortunately, one must adapt to changes and the environment he lives in. I live in the US and the internet is my main coin pipeline. If I still lived in the UK, I would ignore slabs too since there are plenty of raw British coins about to look at.

[Sylvester 59]

With regards to this slabbing debate, Wybrit pointed out that many British collectors sell off coins to purchase others, this is true and i've sold off more coins over the past few years than anyone here, i sold about 20 sixpences last month alone. This is purely so i can buy coins more interesting to me, when buying the new coins i pay no attention to what it might sell for later, i sell my coins stright to dealers anyway which means i lose out on every sale, it also doesn't help if you pay over book price for coins anyhow really, does it? Investment is no interest of mine. Money comes, money goes, one thing's for sure you can't take it with you. So find ways to help it give you more enjoyment.

Interesting how on this forum i'm much more in tune with common opinion than i am on CU forums where i'm yet again the odd one out seemingly to most members swimming in the face of all common sense.

[wybrit 2]

Interesting how on this forum i'm much more in tune with common opinion than i am on CU forums where i'm yet again the odd one out seemingly to most members swimming in the face of all common sense.

It makes things more interesting that way. We enjoy your opinions over there, keep them coming!

Now, the CU US coin forum...all they do is talk about slabs and micrograding. I don't have any interest in that rubbish at all - I think we could agree on that!

[Half Penny Jon 0]

(2) I, like many British numismatists, buy upgrades on coins I own and sell the previous bests. Most of us have to do that or we would run out of money quickly. I saw a very nice 1903 halfpenny up on ebay just recently from one of the members of this forum. Is he not a British numismatist?

Yeh I sold that a couple of months ago I think, I upgraded. I actually found a better example!

[Peter 615]

It looks like you can slab your own coins in the States....just buy the gear off Ebay....and I'm sure the Chinese are already doing this for our US buddies.

In the US the commercialism in collecting is rife...the industry seems massive with 100's of dealers selling very similar products.

I've taken a peak at a copper forum when it appears common to make an expensive purchase of a raw coin then crap themselves on whether its authentic....they need to get it slabbed.

Takes all sorts I suppose.

[Rob 3,243]

As regards getting ripped off, do the grading companies slab them to your description or their own? I have seen a couple of examples which were obviously wrong and other references to incorrectly described slabs. One example was what must have been the first known example of an Elizabeth 1st 6th issue pound with a mintmark woolpack! The problem there is the discrepancy of about £1000 pounds in VF between the 2 issues, so I don't know if it was a mistake by the grading service which was either PCGS or ANACS - I can't remember which, or whether it was submitted as a 6th issue out of ignorance or with intention to deceive. I picked up an example which was a 1675/3 halfpenny slabbed as MS64 but described as a straight 1673. This probably was a case of mistaken identity, but having said that I bought it because I could identify the overstrike through the plastic with little difficulty, so the question remains. Who does and what are the quality checks? Thoughts anybody?

[Sylvester 59]

I picked up an example which was a 1675/3 halfpenny slabbed as MS64 but described as a straight 1673. This probably was a case of mistaken identity, but having said that I bought it because I could identify the overstrike through the plastic with little difficulty, so the question remains. Who does and what are the quality checks? Thoughts anybody?

You'd think 'professionals' would have noticed that one surely?

I mean they spend ages looking at the coin through magnifiers to distinguish the grade and then go and get the year wrong!

[Peter 615]

Its must be easy to take a Porsche to a Ferrari dealer !!!!!!

Its also quite common to buy rarities from professional dealers who don't know their subject....it is rather vast

A slabbing company might know about 1675/3 1/2d (it is listed as a variety in Coincraft and Spink)....but the likes of Peck or Montagu hadn't

mentioned it.

I should doubt a US slabber would really know where to start.

There is not one concise book at present....every time someone does a piece of work further varieties are added.

I use Dr Nicholson's collection of 1/2d's on the Colin Cookes site....it deserves publication.....Colin had mentioned this to me last year....but even Nicholsons collection excluded varieties of 1957 Calm sea....for example.

I know he was also working on a farthing Encylopedia.

I'm currently reading back copies of Coin/Coin monthly (it became fortnightly for a period in thr late 70,s early 80's).

There is loads of info in there currently unpublished.....I,m hacking through with Post its

[Rob 3,243]

Its must be easy to take a Porsche to a Ferrari dealer !!!!!!

Its also quite common to buy rarities from professional dealers who don't know their subject....it is rather vast

A slabbing company might know about 1675/3 1/2d (it is listed as a variety in Coincraft and Spink)....but the likes of Peck or Montagu hadn't

mentioned it.

I should doubt a US slabber would really know where to start.

There is not one concise book at present....every time someone does a piece of work further varieties are added.

I use Dr Nicholson's collection of 1/2d's on the Colin Cookes site....it deserves publication.....Colin had mentioned this to me last year....but even Nicholsons collection excluded varieties of 1957 Calm sea....for example.

I know he was also working on a farthing Encylopedia.

I'm currently reading back copies of Coin/Coin monthly (it became fortnightly for a period in thr late 70,s early 80's).

There is loads of info in there currently unpublished.....I,m hacking through with Post its

Regarding a list of halfpennies, I was laid up in bed for a month recently and to while away the time compiled a list of halfpennies in both silver and base metal using Peck, Freeman, North, Nicholson, my collection of auction catalogues and my own collection and came up with about 1400 varieties. This doesn't include the sub-varieties of the modern stuff which has not been written up anywhere to my knowledge other than the few reverse varieties listed in Freeman from the 20th century. In fact it is the reverses which are likely to yield the most new info as a lot of people only seem to look at the obv. for some reason. It obviously won't be exhaustive, but could form the basis of a reference work if anyone else is interested.

[Chris Perkins 228]

Is it typed up in an orderly fashion?

[Peter 615]

Michael Gouby has done a book on Bronze Pennies but runs this off the success of his coin shop (I would imagine)...this moves on from Peck,Freeman et al.

To get anything published and be commercially viable ????????.... I would suggest you would have to do it for love rather than money.

There is a market out there for specialist books (look at the price of out of print Freeman and Pecks).

I think Coincraft were moving in the right direction...but they are probably one of the most affluent dealers in the country....and for some strange reason its stopping at 2000.

Now back to slabbing.....its here to stay..... if you don't like it avoid it.

I nearly bought an EF 40 slabbed gothic florin....but I couldn't see it past a VF/GVF.

It was about the right price....but the difference in grade was enough to walk away.

I've noticed Lockdales have just started slabbing/grading in the UK....They already sell in $ so they were the obvious copycats.

Going back to getting work published Coin monthly used to pay for good articles......EG some poor bugger did die surveys on 20,000

Victorian shillings...phew...and without a computer.

[Chris Perkins 228]

Michael Gouby has done a book on Bronze Pennies but runs this off the success of his coin shop (I would imagine)...this moves on from Peck,Freeman et al.

To get anything published and be commercially viable ????????.... I would suggest you would have to do it for love rather than money.

I have the Gouby book, he gave it to me personally. I don't think he sells all that many, and even that is in need of an update. Putting a book on halfpennies in print would not be viable, but an electronic version, downloadable PDF or some kind of pay and view on the internet system would probably work. I could then mention it under the halfpenny section of CCGB2005...."For in depth specialist information on halfpennies, see www.rotographic.co.uk". Even at £2.00 a copy, when your selling something that involves no paper, no postage and no wrapping up, it could work.

Anyway, I digress. Perhaps you could PM me Rob.

[Rob 3,243]

Is it typed up in an orderly fashion?

No. I haven't got round to putting it on the computer yet. As I said, I only did it to pass the time and to have a quick check on where I was up to with my collection. I was also thinking of doing something similar for shillings.

[Chris Perkins 228]

No. I haven't got round to putting it on the computer yet. As I said, I only did it to pass the time and to have a quick check on where I was up to with my collection. I was also thinking of doing something similar for shillings.

Well if it ever becomes typed up in an orderly fashion, I may be interested to offer it somehow. Same applies to the shilling info. The thing I have found about miniscule varieties is that it's so difficult to distinguish without pictures.

[mint_mark 10]

I've taken a peak at a copper forum when it appears common to make an expensive purchase of a raw coin then crap themselves on whether its authentic....they need to get it slabbed.

Well, I can at least understand that... it's because grading is subjective and we are all learning all the time. I have coins that I was really pleased with at the time, but now I look at them and think "*sigh*... that has probably been cleaned" or even "that's probably a trace of mounting". It's just I wasn't experienced or objective enough at the time to recognise it.

So now I either stick with the coin and live with my "mistake", or I upgrade and practically give the old coin away. I suppose the slabbing offers another (supposedly expert) opinion, which might reassure someone who doesn't want to feel duped.

[mint_mark 10]

The thing I have found about miniscule varieties is that it's so difficult to distinguish without pictures.

I definitely agree with that!! All too often the book says "large this" or "smaller that" and without seeing the other one how can you tell? Luckily with digital cameras that have good macro capability there are some great variety web sites out there.

[Sylvester 59]

I usually try and ignore varieties where possible, too much miniscule detail and since i still don't have a loupe/magnifier i usually don't bother looking.

I notice copper/bronze coin collectors tend to buy more into this variety business than most other denomination collectors, but i'm guessing this is simply because generally copper/bronze is a cheaper field than say halfcrowns with less demand and therefore you get the chance to study more of them and notice these things.