Minor GB Penny Queries - Etched 1860 ?, Lower 90 in 1890

[The Bee 128]

Back to 1874 H having checked the pennies sadly I don't have reverse I as yet.

For a circulated coin the H over the gap look a good clue. But so far I have only one example of an 1874 H Penny where the H is over the gap between the beads, but its not the reverse I. Its quite a worn example of Gouby BP 1874 Jd

Anyway onto the pictures, the circulated Penny below might be reverse g and obverse K. It is a wide date H and the sea crosses both sides of the linear circle.  There is no rock on the left of the lighthouse and the O from ONE looks to be close to the top of the lighthouse. I'm not sure about the lighthouse though, seems to be one of the areas that wasn't protected and gets worn. Have attached a picture of the obverse and a close up of the left and right sides of the linear circle showing (I think) the sea crossing both sides 

If I'm mistaken please feel free to correct me !

Very Best Regards

P.S. the spots to the left of the galleon seem to be annoying examples of light pitting (corrosion) which pepper both surfaces  

 

[secret santa 2,325]

Very distinctive top of lighthouse confirms reverse g.

[The Bee 128]

Many thanks Richard - great to get it confirmed - I do have problems with lighthouses (well the ones on GB Bronze anyway !) I will adda note to the tray

Here is the obverse which I think must be K

Very Best Regards

 

 

 

[The Bee 128]

Last Bronze today an 1861 Half Penny . Condition is poor (Gouby 7 obverse not sure on the reverse) but the date was of interest. Must be lots of examples around in better condition, but nice to have this one 

 

 

[Martinminerva 330]

The 1874H penny above is a standard Freeman 71, namely 7+G by his die pairings.

However, your 1861 halfpenny is much more interesting - it is a Freeman 282, coincidentally also a 7+G pairing by his halfpenny die pairs, BUT the 1 over 1 to the left was only recorded by Iain Dracott back in 2004 in his series of halfpenny articles in Coin News magazine, and not many are yet known. As halfpennies tend to be less focused on by collectors, I bet there are a few more around and unnoticed, but once again you have nailed a pretty rare, if not especially (yet) sought after, variety! Well done again!

[The Bee 128]

Many thanks Martin,

Glad you liked it. I wasn't sure how to describe the halfpenny, so that's brilliant. Its a bit worn and not obvious what's going on when you look straight at the coin (on the photo of the obverse you can just see the light bouncing off the 1. Tilt the coin slightly and the 1 jumps out clearly. An affordable impulse purchase. If its any use to Richard he is more than welcome to use it for halfpenny varieties.

Very Best Regards  

[Zo Arms 287]

On 11/17/2024 at 4:15 PM, Martinminerva said:

The 1874H penny above is a standard Freeman 71, namely 7+G by his die pairings.

However, your 1861 halfpenny is much more interesting - it is a Freeman 282, coincidentally also a 7+G pairing by his halfpenny die pairs, BUT the 1 over 1 to the left was only recorded by Iain Dracott back in 2004 in his series of halfpenny articles in Coin News magazine, and not many are yet known. As halfpennies tend to be less focused on by collectors, I bet there are a few more around and unnoticed, but once again you have nailed a pretty rare, if not especially (yet) sought after, variety! Well done again!

I'd agree with the above. Not found one myself yet. 

Would you believe it, Gary has one. (Bronze and Copper collector). He posted a list, some years ago, showing a range of 1 over 1. I'll see if I can find it.

Only slightly jealous.

Bob.

[secret santa 2,325]

On 11/17/2024 at 7:49 PM, The Bee said:

If its any use to Richard he is more than welcome to use it for halfpenny varieties.

I've added it as a sub-variety of reverse G. It's the first time I've updated the site for a few years.

[The Bee 128]

Another worn and circulated 1861 Halfpenny.

I have just been going through a mixed lot, mainly worn Victorian pennies, On the plus side it includes a nice 1899 Penny (10 1/2 teeth BP 1899 Ac); a very thin 1939 Penny (just looks a bit odd), a decent token halfpenny 1794;  misc. Victoria and Geo III; and another 1861 Halfpenny. 

This time (not sure if its damage) the foot of the right leg of H in halfpenny might have been re-cut and the second T in Britt is slightly rotated.

The lighthouse has masonry at the base but not further up (could be wear ?)

Assuming its a standard Obverse and Reverse - possibly with a couple of minor odd additions 

 

   

[The Bee 128]

Just to add to the above below is a close up of BRITT. Under the left hand side of the 2nd T is I think a hint of a lower T 

Very Best Regards

 

 

 

[secret santa 2,325]

These repairs were very common in the early 1860's.

[The Bee 128]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

These repairs were very common in the early 1860's.

Many thanks Richard,

I did wonder however is there something hidden under the R in BRITT. Could it be a R over a B possibly ?

Best Regards

[terrysoldpennies 763]

The letter underneath looks to be the original R which has partly filled, and has then been over punched on the die with another R .  The ones with a different letter are all very sought after, or with the same letter rotated and over punched , but not really with the same letter re punched more or less in the same position.

[The Bee 128]

Brilliant Many thanks Terry and Richard,

I'll add to the description that there is an R over a partly filled R in Britt (with re-cut H slightly higher in Halfpenny and 2nd slightly higher T in Britt)

Best Regards

 

[secret santa 2,325]

I would say that the rotated T is the most interesting of the 3 repairs but they all result from the same manual intervention, rather than being a considered design change.

[SilverAge3 80]

On 9/22/2024 at 4:56 AM, secret santa said:

This was Michael's first book (published in 1986) and is useful as it covers Edward VII to Elizabeth II.

The Victoria edition came later (2009 as Pete says).

I'm assuming this earlier book 1860-1970 will be even more difficult to track down a copy? That said, I'd be obliged and delighted to obtain a copy if anyone knows of one, or spots one in the wild.

[The Bee 128]

Once again many thanks for everyone's help 

I bought a collection of mixed bronze Farthings and Halfpennies, including one halfpenny for 1860, two for 1861 and several 1862's, these were the cast offs the auctioneer lumped together 

On looking at Secret Santa's Halfpenny Site I found an 1862 Halfpenny F over B in Britt. I started at 1861 and found what I think is the same thing 

On checking the 1860 I found it was a 1+A, but remembered I had two in better condition so on whim I had another look at them and on closer inspection. I wondered (just based on Britannia's hair) if one of them might be 1+A and the other a 1+A#

Best Regards

 

[Martinminerva 330]

50 minutes ago, The Bee said:

On looking at Secret Santa's Halfpenny Site I found an 1862 Halfpenny F over B in Britt. I started at 1861 and found what I think is the same thing 

 

 

Check out page 24 of this thread: https://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/12819-halfpenny-id-check/?page=24   It tells the story of the discovery of the E (rather than F) over B. Also, on the previous page or two is lots of stuff about 1860 beaded border combinations.

Bob (Zo Arms) found the first, a 4+G and then I found a 6+G. Yours is exactly the same as mine, a 6+G, as proven by the matching die crack! You've done it again with a smashing find! I wish all the junk lots I bought had all the varieties yours do! How do you do it?!😖

[The Bee 128]

Many thanks for your help Martin,

I just had a hunch there might be something interesting in the lot. This time I was right. On the outside of the flip is written Great Britain 1861 EF $50 (Initials M.A. on the back).

But there was no mention of the B in Britt. Great to have it identified as a 6+G ! I'll put in the tray tomorrow

Incidentally the other 1861 has something odd about the E in REG its probably damage but looks a bit like an L

Great to get your thoughts on the 3rd halfpenny from the lot !

Best Regards

 

[Martinminerva 330]

25 minutes ago, The Bee said:

Incidentally the other 1861 has something odd about the E in REG its probably damage but looks a bit like an L

Great to get your thoughts on the 3rd halfpenny from the lot !

Best Regards

 

This one I think is just die fill or die wear - also visible on the F of FD. It's the sort of thing that leads in time to die repair and the occasional doubling of letters that was discussed in another post, but it is always possible that here the E has already been repaired with an L, but just can't tell from this photo whether it is just the top bar of the E that has gone or if strengthening has already been done with an L.  In the Gouby book for pennies, look at the entries for 1860 and 1861 in particular and you'll see all sorts of repairs and part-letter repairs; the same thing happened with halfpennies, especially in these early years.

[Peckris 2 2,127]

On 12/18/2024 at 7:57 PM, The Bee said:

 

On looking at Secret Santa's Halfpenny Site I found an 1862 Halfpenny F over B in Britt. I started at 1861 and found what I think is the same thing 

On checking the 1860 I found it was a 1+A, but remembered I had two in better condition so on whim I had another look at them and on closer inspection. I wondered (just based on Britannia's hair) if one of them might be 1+A and the other a 1+A#

It may appear to be F (or E) over B but please note it's actually B over F/E as it's 'BRITT'. This may be something to do with the way they did the  repair.

Edited December 21, 2024 by Peckris 2

[Rob 3,152]

1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

It may appear to be F (or E) over B but please note it's actually B over F/E as it's 'BRITT'. This may be something to do with the way they did the  repair.

It could be either, depending on whether they inserted the wrong letter initially, or reinforced just a small section of a blocked letter using a punch big enough to cover the defective area. You also have to consider the ability to sink a correction deep enough on the die if it had been hardened previously and the degree to which it had been softened in order to sink the new punch. The truth is, we don't know the circumstances and can only speculate. 

There is however, strong circumstantial evidence on occasion to suggest insufficient depth of strike for the correction or change of date. The above may well be a case of this, but equally could  be a repair to the upright of the B, as in this instance the use of E, F, I or L would all broadly follow the shape of the B.  

[The Bee 128]

1870 Penny E in ONE and 1861 Halfpenny 

Many thanks for all the above its has been really help. My example of the halfpenny (E over or under B etc) shows some wear and has been circulating (you can only just make out the lower limb of the E, the end of which crosses the B just under halfway up). The other examples (referenced in the link above) which survived in better shape might be more decisive

Managed to sort l my pennies through to 1894 and weed out all the many duplicates (which I had piled in hopes that they might fill a gap) earlier than I expected.

Which gave me time to have another look at that E in ONE from the 1873 penny. At first glance it looked as if there might have been a repair, but on closer inspection the lower limb of the E looks damaged and I don't think its anything more than a damaged E.

I also had another look at the other 1861 halfpenny (above) again on closer inspection it looks like damage of some kind (both images are below)

When sorting out the penny trays I have used Mr Gouby's book (the British Bronze Penny) along with Richard's web pages (probably been another 1,000 views by me!) to identify the correct (best I can) Obverses and Reverses

Apologies but I had a couple of minor queries as a result and wondered if anyone might be able to assist ?

In 1874 the Royal Mint "narrow date" pennies were mainly reverse "j" with a few "ja", and then in 1875 the Royal Mint narrow date pennies were reverse "ja" only. There are several differences between j and ja noted. The most obvious one (for me) being Britannia's hair. For j long hair and for ja much shorter hair. The second difference the angle of Britannia's helmet.

I wondered if anyone has spotted any other differences in Britannia's hair, either on the j or ja reverse for either date ? (had a bit of ambiguity with my reverse j hair)

And my second query, while working through The British Bronze Penny, there are examples given of slight doubling of the linear circle in similar places by the date e.g. 1874 H and 1875. 

Working through my trays I found a few possible examples including 1875 and 1892. I made me wonder whether the effect of slight doubling might have been a set up / mechanical issue ?

Very Best Regards

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Bee 128]

Hope everyone had a good Christmas and New Year

I have had two weeks holiday (unheard of for me) which among other things allowed me that time to sort out and weed my penny trays.

Having done that I just wanted to share some images from 1863 and 1863 [?] and 1892

The first two are the same coin. I noticed that there was a spec of something under the date. It looked like damage, but on zooming in (2nd picture) did wonder if there something hiding?

Its a tolerable 1863 !

The second very worn penny I think is 1863, but wondered if it might be an 1865 over 3 that has suffered a bit ? Again could just be damage - Any thoughts ?

Last one from 1892 looks like slight doubling of the linear circle

Very Best Regards and best of luck collecting in 2025 

 

[The Bee 128]

Apologies the images above ended up in the wrong order - the top image is the 1863 ? 1865 ??

The next two are the 1863 with the spec on it !

Very Best Regards !