Grading Coins

[bob.phillips 0]

As an amateur coin collector, the subject of grading coins is an interesting one. I don't pretend to be any sort of expert on the subject, but it seems to me that even so called ' coin dealers' sometimes don't have a clue on the grades of coins. This is particularly evident on E-bay, where frequently, coins described as EF are sometimes no better than F.

Can anyone tell me how to get more information on grading coins? Are there any courses run on the subject and indeed can one get any sort of qualification in the subject?

I live in Milton Keynes ( well, someone has to) so please don't suggest any options that are too far away.

Thanks for any info given.

Regards,

Bob Phillips - member

[Gary D 76]

As an amateur coin collector, the subject of grading coins is an interesting one. I don't pretend to be any sort of expert on the subject, but it seems to me that even so called ' coin dealers' sometimes don't have a clue on the grades of coins. This is particularly evident on E-bay, where frequently, coins described as EF are sometimes no better than F.

Can anyone tell me how to get more information on grading coins? Are there any courses run on the subject and indeed can one get any sort of qualification in the subject?

I live in Milton Keynes ( well, someone has to) so please don't suggest any options that are too far away.

Thanks for any info given.

Regards,

Bob Phillips - member

When I started collecting back in about 1970 I brought a book called "Picture guide to coin condition" by Burton Hobson. Although a bit limited it goes through various coins showing were they wear and the amount of wear in each grade. I don't know if it's still available. Updating it could be an ideal project for Chris

[Rob 3,152]

As an amateur coin collector, the subject of grading coins is an interesting one. I don't pretend to be any sort of expert on the subject, but it seems to me that even so called ' coin dealers' sometimes don't have a clue on the grades of coins. This is particularly evident on E-bay, where frequently, coins described as EF are sometimes no better than F.

Can anyone tell me how to get more information on grading coins? Are there any courses run on the subject and indeed can one get any sort of qualification in the subject?

I live in Milton Keynes ( well, someone has to) so please don't suggest any options that are too far away.

Thanks for any info given.

Regards,

Bob Phillips - member

When I started collecting back in about 1970 I brought a book called "Picture guide to coin condition" by Burton Hobson. Although a bit limited it goes through various coins showing were they wear and the amount of wear in each grade. I don't know if it's still available. Updating it could be an ideal project for Chris

At the beginning of the milled section in Spink (p.304 in the 2006 issue) there are pictures of coins in various grades together with a written description of what each grade has in terms of wear or features visible. Given the number of people that quote Spink prices and so must own this volume, it is somewhat surprising that they don't appear to have noticed these pages, or perhaps it's simply that they don't support the wished for and claimed grade.

[Geordie582 18]

Grading milled seems to be more of a science than hammered, the latter being VERY subjective. I disagree with most dealers on hammered and wonder how much they would alter their opinion should they be buying from you! Experience is the only sure teacher, but it will probably involve a certain amount of mistakes, some even expensive!

[Peter 615]

I agree with Geordie on the hammered (which also applies to early milled).

Ugly stains on the flans being typical.

Obviously with hammered several obsevations come into play....A nice round flan,no fan splits, being well centred,unclipped,quality of metal etc.etc.

In the real world the buyer wants to down grade the piece and the seller upgrade...long may it reign....the alternative is Slabbing

[TomGoodheart 400]

I've never heard of courses in grading. But then it isn't a precise science. Even grading services have been known to 'revise' grades when the same coin is resubmitted.

I'm afraid there's nothing like experience! I have been surprised at times even here, on this forum, at members' grading views - and I tend to think we have a very erudite bunch indeed! But then, the coins I've been surprised at aren't the ones I specialise in and consequently have less experience of that area!

The bottom line is that you can (I think) only accurately grade a coin when you know what the very best existing example is like. With modern and milled, you have other great coins as a sort of benchmark. The earlier milled and hammered; that gets more difficult.

Hammered is especially difficult. Particulalrly where the flan is not of even thickness. The lettering is therefore as crisp as you please (almost that so-sharp-you-could-cut-yourself 'proof' quality) but the bust - which is generally most people's focus - is so weak it looks worn.

Ultimately I think learning to grade is one of the things that we all have to learn along with our subject area.

ps - don't knock MK bob - that's my neck of the woods too!

Edited July 20, 2006 by TomGoodheart

[Geordie582 18]

As you obviously have Spinks, try looking at the Henry II "Tealby" issues and you'll see the problem.

[Rob 3,152]

I've never heard of courses in grading. But then it isn't a precise science. Even grading services have been known to 'revise' grades when the same coin is resubmitted.

The bottom line is that you can (I think) only accurately grade a coin when you know what the very best existing example is like. With modern and milled, you have other great coins as a sort of benchmark. The earlier milled and hammered; that gets more difficult.

Ultimately I think learning to grade is one of the things that we all have to learn along with our subject area.

ps - don't knock MK bob - that's my neck of the woods too!

First of all the grading services seem to grade according to market whims. They do slab dipped coins which then become "frosty white".

Also artificially toned coins get higher grades because they have "better colour" and this is the latest fashion statement in US numismatics - or so it seems.

I'll go along with the idea of people not recognising the perfect coin. e.g.The number of slabbed MS63 James II shillings is considerable and covers grades from gVF upwards. I have only ever seen ONE mint state example with full laurel detail, a fully struck up reverse, full lustre and no weakness anywhere. Sadly it wasn't mine and it wasn't for sale.

Looking through auction catalogues is probably the easiest way to learn what a mint state example looks like. Dealers' lists are not, they are trying to sell for maximum profit. eBay has two grades. UNC covers VF-UNC (usually) and high grade or extremely fine the lower grades, so can be dismissed.

[bob.phillips 0]

Thanks to you all for the responses. I have now got a copy of Spinks, which is helpful. Maybe someone should help to clarify things for us beginers.

Thanks again

Bob Phillips

I've never heard of courses in grading. But then it isn't a precise science. Even grading services have been known to 'revise' grades when the same coin is resubmitted.

The bottom line is that you can (I think) only accurately grade a coin when you know what the very best existing example is like. With modern and milled, you have other great coins as a sort of benchmark. The earlier milled and hammered; that gets more difficult.

Ultimately I think learning to grade is one of the things that we all have to learn along with our subject area.

ps - don't knock MK bob - that's my neck of the woods too!

First of all the grading services seem to grade according to market whims. They do slab dipped coins which then become "frosty white".

Also artificially toned coins get higher grades because they have "better colour" and this is the latest fashion statement in US numismatics - or so it seems.

I'll go along with the idea of people not recognising the perfect coin. e.g.The number of slabbed MS63 James II shillings is considerable and covers grades from gVF upwards. I have only ever seen ONE mint state example with full laurel detail, a fully struck up reverse, full lustre and no weakness anywhere. Sadly it wasn't mine and it wasn't for sale.

Looking through auction catalogues is probably the easiest way to learn what a mint state example looks like. Dealers' lists are not, they are trying to sell for maximum profit. eBay has two grades. UNC covers VF-UNC (usually) and high grade or extremely fine the lower grades, so can be dismissed.

[Rob 3,152]

I've never heard of courses in grading. But then it isn't a precise science. Even grading services have been known to 'revise' grades when the same coin is resubmitted.

I'm afraid there's nothing like experience! I have been surprised at times even here, on this forum, at members' grading views - and I tend to think we have a very erudite bunch indeed! But then, the coins I've been surprised at aren't the ones I specialise in and consequently have less experience of that area!

The bottom line is that you can (I think) only accurately grade a coin when you know what the very best existing example is like. With modern and milled, you have other great coins as a sort of benchmark. The earlier milled and hammered; that gets more difficult.

Hammered is especially difficult. Particulalrly where the flan is not of even thickness. The lettering is therefore as crisp as you please (almost that so-sharp-you-could-cut-yourself 'proof' quality) but the bust - which is generally most people's focus - is so weak it looks worn.

Ultimately I think learning to grade is one of the things that we all have to learn along with our subject area.

ps - don't knock MK bob - that's my neck of the woods too!

I'll go along with this. If you look at the NGC site they list population reports for the various denominations and grades. If their records are up to date, they have graded precisely 6 Charles II halfpennies, 2 of each year. 1672 MS62 & MS65, 1673 MS64 & MS65 and 1675 VF40 x2. They gave my 1675/3/2 as seen in the unconfirmed variety section a MS65BN grade which conveniently ignored the 5/3 overdate which is very clear, and also the generous amounts of lustre which whilst slabbed showed through even in a darkish room: although I will let them off the underlying 2. It is almost certain that they are unaware that this piece is quite possibly the best known and certainly the only piece I have ever seen in the hand or in catalogues that is close to mint state although I don't know what the museum examples are like so there may be better. The MS64 is the Cheshire Collection piece, lot 2209 which is definitely not mint state and a 1675/3 in any case. The 2 1672's are also both ex- Cheshire collection and although relatively with respect to each other grades of 62 & 65 are OK, there is no way the P509 is mint state. The 1675's I don't know about. How anyone can say that a sample size of 6 pieces is sufficient to determine what a mint state example looks like beggars belief, reinforced by the fact there are no coins slabbed in low grade which is equally important in ascribing grades and merely reinforces my belief that American grading companies are insufficiently experienced to quote any grade to most rarer British pieces. But no business will ever admit that.

The key to grading is knowing what the best looks like, but also knowing what is a weak strike, what is worn dies, and given the number of replicas in the market these days what is real or not. All of these things depend on having seen a top grade piece, or preferably pieces.

Thank you. Rant over.

[Sylvester 15]

As you obviously have Spinks, try looking at the Henry II "Tealby" issues and you'll see the problem.

I'm cringing at that thought. I've never tried to grade one of those yet. I dunno if i dare.

With hammered i gave up with grading. I figured it's alot simpler to buy on eye appeal.

I'll go along with the idea of people not recognising the perfect coin. e.g.The number of slabbed MS63 James II shillings is considerable and covers grades from gVF upwards. I have only ever seen ONE mint state example with full laurel detail, a fully struck up reverse, full lustre and no weakness anywhere. Sadly it wasn't mine and it wasn't for sale.

That takes me straight back to a Queen Anne Shilling, MS63... never believe everything you read on the packet. The coin was a bog standard EF. (Which in the slack US grading should be AU/MS60)