Charles I Tower shilling varieties

[TomGoodheart 403]

I am aware that most Members here collect milled coinage and those that do dabble in hammered don't specialise to the extent that I do. I therefore thought it might be nice to spread the knowledge a bit.

On the other hand, I don't want to clog up the forum with a topic that few people will find of use. While this may be restating the obvious, I have therefore decided that if anyone is interested in discussing Charles I shillings I am quite happy for you to PM or email me.

If you have, or know of, a variety or type that is unpublished (by which I generally mean that doesn't appear in the Brooker Collection record (SCBI 33) or in Michael Sharp's BNJ article of 1978) I would be most interested to hear about it! If on the other hand you are curious about coins that have come to light in recent years or have something you can't identify, I'll do my best to answer any questions.

If anyone disagrees and wants this topic to receive a wider airing on the forum I guess Sylvester or Chris will have to decide on which Forum/Thread is most appropriate.

[Rob 3,152]

I am aware that most Members here collect milled coinage and those that do dabble in hammered don't specialise to the extent that I do. I therefore thought it might be nice to spread the knowledge a bit.

On the other hand, I don't want to clog up the forum with a topic that few people will find of use. While this may be restating the obvious, I have therefore decided that if anyone is interested in discussing Charles I shillings I am quite happy for you to PM or email me.

If you have, or know of, a variety or type that is unpublished (by which I generally mean that doesn't appear in the Brooker Collection record (SCBI 33) or in Michael Sharp's BNJ article of 1978) I would be most interested to hear about it! If on the other hand you are curious about coins that have come to light in recent years or have something you can't identify, I'll do my best to answer any questions.

If anyone disagrees and wants this topic to receive a wider airing on the forum I guess Sylvester or Chris will have to decide on which Forum/Thread is most appropriate.

I'm a bit short on unrecorded Chas 1s but this isn't in Brooker or anywhere else to my knowledge. H instead of HI or HIB

[TomGoodheart 403]

Now that's one I haven't seen before Rob! Most 'abbreviations' tend to cut three letters down to two - very curious and on a fairly scarce coin. Thanks for that!

I did have a later 'Aberystwyth' style coin (an F3/1 rather than an F1/1) which read RX instead of REX which I sold on. I guess die sinkers have off days like anyone else!

Hmm - I'm sure there must be a way to thumbnail a pic but.....

[Rob 3,152]

I presume you know about this one. CAROLS E2/2 i.m. Tun. Mine is ex- Roger Shuttlewood who had found a better one, so there are at least 2 about.

[TomGoodheart 403]

No - I hadn't heard of that one Rob, so thanks. I shall add it to my records!

In the meantime I am pleased to have tracked down another rarity. When Michael Sharp's paper was published he only listed the first of the 'Aberystwyth' style busts, privy mark Tun (and the only one of the series with a double arched crown) with a small mark of value.

In 1990 an unusual coin with this bust but bearing the Anchor pm and a large mark of value came to light (there's an example in my bit of the Gallery section). I also heard of a coin with the 'original' Tun mark and the large mark of value, but had never seen one until now.

I am however now pleased to be able to add a picture of a second example of this Tun coin that has come my way. Well clipped and a bit knackered but recognisable nevertheless! Quite why they were produced I doubt we'll ever know, but it keeps collectors like me on our toes!

Of course if anyone else finds, or has coins like these, I will be most pleased to hear from them!

[Geordie582 18]

If on the other hand you are curious about coins that have come to light in recent years or have something you can't identify, I'll do my best to answer any questions.

A dangerous statement Tom! It covers centuries of numismatics! The one I use in my avatar is still a challenge to all and sundry! I've sent it to the Coin News and am waiting with bated breath for a reply!!!

[TomGoodheart 403]

Ah! Well I did really mean Chas shillings, but as you know Geordie, I will occasionally have a go at other areas.

I'll certainly be interested to hear any opinions on your coin as and when - it certainly beat me!!

[Geordie582 18]

Don't worry! If I get an authoritarian identification I'll post it on the forum!

[Rob 3,152]

Here's another one I forgot about with C/inverted R beside the shield (that's according to MS).

[TomGoodheart 403]

Thanks Rob - it does indeed look like the C has been restruck over an inverted R. Interestingly the R looks clear. I knew about coins with both the C and R inverted (and saw one a while ago but at a ridiculous price!) but this is a new one to me!

Did you see on ebay recently a coin that looked as if the C and R were missing altogether? I did email the seller but I never got the better pics I requested and then was away on holiday so don't know for sure... One more to look out for perhaps?

[Rob 3,152]

Did you see on ebay recently a coin that looked as if the C and R were missing altogether? I did email the seller but I never got the better pics I requested and then was away on holiday so don't know for sure... One more to look out for perhaps?

No.

[TomGoodheart 403]

Charles I shilling

[Rob 3,152]

Charles I shilling

I've bought a couple of things from her in the past but have not been too impressed, so tend to move along quickly when the id comes up.

[Rob 3,152]

Unrecorded to my knowledge is an E2/3 mm.Tun with apostrophe only stops on the obverse instead of the usual apost. with stop below. Also, the reverse has no stops. All the 3 other examples of this type I could find - Lockett 3424, Burstal 309 and Brooker 508 had apostrophes with a lower stop and reverse stops in the legend.

I can't add a picture here because I've reached my limit for this thread, so will put it in the unrecorded varieties section.

[Rob 3,152]

Unrecorded to my knowledge is an E2/3 mm.Tun with apostrophe only stops on the obverse instead of the usual apost. with stop below. Also, the reverse has no stops. All the 3 other examples of this type I could find - Lockett 3424, Burstal 309 and Brooker 508 had apostrophes with a lower stop and reverse stops in the legend.

I can't add a picture here because I've reached my limit for this thread, so will put it in the unrecorded varieties section.

Can't post a picture in the unrecorded varieties section either - something wrong here as the file size is the same as normally used. If anyone wants a picture, please PM me.

[Chris Perkins 228]

I think the server (or at least my allocated area) has run out of space!

I've deleted some things, try it now.

[Rob 3,152]

Unrecorded to my knowledge is an E2/3 mm.Tun with apostrophe only stops on the obverse instead of the usual apost. with stop below. Also, the reverse has no stops. All the 3 other examples of this type I could find - Lockett 3424, Burstal 309 and Brooker 508 had apostrophes with a lower stop and reverse stops in the legend.

I can't add a picture here because I've reached my limit for this thread, so will put it in the unrecorded varieties section.

Can't post a picture in the unrecorded varieties section either - something wrong here as the file size is the same as normally used. If anyone wants a picture, please PM me.

Try again at less dpi.

Overall about the same grade as the Burstal piece which is better than either the Brooker or Lockett examples. Weaker on the portrait but stronger legend and fewer flat areas to the reverse. Not clipped and a nice round flan weighing 6.37g. I believe this is a new die pairing for what is already a seriously rare variety.

[Rob 3,152]

This little gem turned up on ebay a couple of weeks ago. This obverse legend with FRA was only present in the Brooker collection for i.m. Harp on one fine work piece and not on any currency pieces. Also came with the added bonus of a Lingford ticket.

Edited October 13, 2006 by Rob

[TomGoodheart 403]

Unrecorded to my knowledge is an E2/3 mm.Tun with apostrophe only stops on the obverse instead of the usual apost. with stop below. Also, the reverse has no stops. All the 3 other examples of this type I could find - Lockett 3424, Burstal 309 and Brooker 508 had apostrophes with a lower stop and reverse stops in the legend.

Hmm.. very interesting Rob. I've only seen two others, neither of which had these features (although I have seen a Tun im coin without the reverse stops). The contraction stops however really are very odd indeed!

By the way - do you think the obverse mint mark looks a bit peculiar? The right hand side of the tun isn't quite clear - I am aware of the existence of a Tun reverse coin with obverse Tun over Crown over Bell mark (!!) - you might want to take a high power lens to it with this in mind!

I love this series - always something new!!

Richard

This little gem turned up on ebay a couple of weeks ago. This obverse legend with FRA was only present in the Brooker collection for i.m. Harp on one fine work piece and not on any currency pieces. Also came with the added bonus of a Lingford ticket.

Ah, now one of those I have seen - not sold as 'fine work' but without the provenance of course!

Edited October 13, 2006 by TomGoodheart

[Rob 3,152]

[

By the way - do you think the obverse mint mark looks a bit peculiar? The right hand side of the tun isn't quite clear - I am aware of the existence of a Tun reverse coin with obverse Tun over Crown over Bell mark (!!) - you might want to take a high power lens to it with this in mind!

I love this series - always something new!!

Richard

It could conceivably be tun over crown over bell. I had considered tun/crown but wasn't fully convinced, so left it in abeyance. The bottom protrusion could conceivably be a bell and the top right a crown. Do you have an image of this overstrike? Higher mag image attached - what do you think?

[Rob 3,152]

[

By the way - do you think the obverse mint mark looks a bit peculiar? The right hand side of the tun isn't quite clear - I am aware of the existence of a Tun reverse coin with obverse Tun over Crown over Bell mark (!!) - you might want to take a high power lens to it with this in mind!

I love this series - always something new!!

Richard

It could conceivably be tun over crown over bell. I had considered tun/crown but wasn't fully convinced, so left it in abeyance. The bottom protrusion could conceivably be a bell and the top right a crown. Do you have an image of this overstrike? Higher mag image attached - what do you think?

Imaged on the scanner it is over crown and probably over bell too as there appears to be a small ring centre top to complement the bottom of what would be a bell!! This is not obvious using an illuminated x12 in the hand.

Edited October 13, 2006 by Rob

[TomGoodheart 403]

Good find Rob!

[Rob 3,152]

I had a further discussion this morning with a third party and I think I'm happy with tun/crown for the obverse. Despite what the scan suggests, in the hand I simply can not make out any of what would be the top of the bell which in any case would have to be a smaller than normal bell, so the bottom protrusion could just be part of a tun. I'm going to seek a fourth opinion but may be a while getting a reply.

Edited October 14, 2006 by Rob

[Rob 3,152]

The reply has arrived.

The Montagu/Morrieson/Lockett and later Sharp piece was thought to be unique at the time of the Lockett sale. MS wrote on his ticket in 1975 2nd known specimen, other ex Burstal because he didn't know of the Brooker coin. The Burstal piece thought to have gone to the BM turned up in Shuttlewood in 2001 so perhaps the BM has another. Another specimen was in the Middleham Hoard, not catalogued but in with 3a tuns and current whereabouts unknown. A specimen was offered in the S+B Bulletin in 2001. My Tun/Crown on the obverse is not unique as another example struck from different dies was bought from a dealer in 1992. The list of recorded i.m.Tun E2/3s including overstrikes has therefore expanded to 6 or 7 with the likelihood of a couple of unknown examples residing in collections.

The apostrophe contraction marks were a new one for my correspondent.

Edited October 25, 2006 by Rob

[Rob 3,152]

Why does it always happen that when you find one rarity another appears almost immediately. Here's another one for the list. G1/1 with triangle/triangle over anchor. A die pairing that wasn't in Brooker or Michael Sharp's article.

Lot 656 at London Coins this weekend was incorrectly described as a Briot reverse, but was in any case a die pairing I haven't seen before with this not particularly aesthetically pleasing example. Obviously having been dug it was pitted and clipped, but as far as I am aware still unrecorded with the G1 bust linked to an earlier reverse which Michael Sharp only records as being paired with busts F3-6.

13 lots later there was a second example except for this time it was triangle over triangle over anchor on the reverse. This piece is a bit ragged and in lower grade but visually much nicer and only slightly underweight at 5.95g.