Grading Madness and Many $$$$ in the US of A

[Peter]

Ooops Mrs Peter has just caught me oggling.

[scottishmoney]

Keep your eyes off Anne's bust.

[Guest E. Dawson]

OK, how's that for a bit of divergence! I think this arena is interesting still: what would be the circumstances that a slab would be acceptable to readers of this column? Would the certification of a coin as genuine be important if countefeits were to increase (say from China)? What about preservation - is cabinet friction or pvc damage or paper envelope sulfur/friction be an incentive?

I do not pretend to have an answer and confess to many times using the little 2x2 holders with mylar and tamp down the staple ends. This is nice in that mylar has NO pvc, but is a bit thin and vulnerable to puncture or tear. And I do like to be able to hold a coin and look without lens or through acrylic but have many coins that in the past have been held inappropriately and now are permanently scarred with resultant damage from holding.

[TomGoodheart]

I too used mylar 'sandwiches' when I collected milled coins. It was nice to be able to hand a coin to one of my daughter's sticky fingered friends without fear of damage. But now I like how they look in a cabinet and I only collect hammered.

If it was a coin I wanted, a slab wouldn't put me off but neither would it be a bonus. I would no doubt 'release' it so it could join the rest in a tray.

If I could afford brilliant examples I might worry about cabinet friction but if you look at the gallery examples from my collection you'll see they aren't likely to be too affected!

As for fakes I think if I really couldn't tell them apart I suspect I'd start collecting something else. But right now I doubt there's a single slabber/grader who knows as much about what I collect as I do and if I had doubts I have some much more knowlegeable friends I could consult.

To be honest, the sort of thing I (or perhaps Geordie, or Sylvester) collect isn't generally going to be worth slabbing. For example - who would pick this out as worth anything???

[Peter]

A bad day for Charlie...but Hey a nice round flan

[Guest Aidan Work]

I too used mylar 'sandwiches' when I collected milled coins. It was nice to be able to hand a coin to one of my daughter's sticky fingered friends without fear of damage. But now I like how they look in a cabinet and I only collect hammered.

If it was a coin I wanted, a slab wouldn't put me off but neither would it be a bonus. I would no doubt 'release' it so it could join the rest in a tray.

If I could afford brilliant examples I might worry about cabinet friction but if you look at the gallery examples from my collection you'll see they aren't likely to be too affected!

As for fakes I think if I really couldn't tell them apart I suspect I'd start collecting something else. But right now I doubt there's a single slabber/grader who knows as much about what I collect as I do and if I had doubts I have some much more knowlegeable friends I could consult.

To be honest, the sort of thing I (or perhaps Geordie, or Sylvester) collect isn't generally going to be worth slabbing. For example - who would pick this out as worth anything???

Tom,that is a very good space-filler,as it is a historically important coin.

Aidan.

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

Again, I'll say that I'm not a fan of the micrograding frenzy here in the USA...

However, here in the USA, there are many fakes that can be made with the addition or removal of a mint mark... Some have fooled even the experts.... modern technology has improved the capabilities of both the coiner and the counterfeiter.... It is there that I feel that the MAJOR (not the fly-by-night) services provide an important commodity.....

Admittedly, this is NOT so vital a point with GB coinage, where a firm knowledge of die combinations can easily prove an altered coin as false, but it is important with many US coins and series....

[Guest E. Dawson]

Yes, point taken but note that high grade examples of the 1905 2/6 are notorious for being counterfeited. The other point is that if you did have a choice mint state example that you felt was genuine and was certified with essetially a warrantee (sp?), would you not feel a little more comfortable? And if not you, what about your descendents (and remember we are talking about a coin worth possibly 3000 pounds or more)? Also more recent milled bits in the copper/bronze and silver series with mint lustre are vulnerable to many environmental changes.

I also understand and agree with your point that we ought to know our coins, but in our smugness do we not also assume that we are correct, and are we always so? Still, with the majority of coins it seems best to leave them unslabbed.

[scottishmoney]

Looks like a roundhead got it and scuffed up Chuck

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

Yes, point taken but note that high grade examples of the 1905 2/6 are notorious for being counterfeited. The other point is that if you did have a choice mint state example that you felt was genuine and was certified with essetially a warrantee (sp?), would you not feel a little more comfortable? And if not you, what about your descendents (and remember we are talking about a coin worth possibly 3000 pounds or more)? Also more recent milled bits in the copper/bronze and silver series with mint lustre are vulnerable to many environmental changes.

I also understand and agree with your point that we ought to know our coins, but in our smugness do we not also assume that we are correct, and are we always so? Still, with the majority of coins it seems best to leave them unslabbed.

An excellent example of a GB coin that is widely conterfeited, and could certainly benefit from certification....

[scottishmoney]

An excellent example of a GB coin that is widely conterfeited, and could certainly benefit from certification....

If this piece were counterfeit, it is likely contemporary, and collectible thus. I have Scottish counterfeits from the time and they are more interesting than the authentic coins.

[Coppers]

An excellent example of a GB coin that is widely conterfeited, and could certainly benefit from certification....

If this piece were counterfeit, it is likely contemporary, and collectible thus. I have Scottish counterfeits from the time and they are more interesting than the authentic coins.

Contemporary counterfeits are highly collectible, but I don't think that this is one of them.

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

An excellent example of a GB coin that is widely conterfeited, and could certainly benefit from certification....

If this piece were counterfeit, it is likely contemporary, and collectible thus. I have Scottish counterfeits from the time and they are more interesting than the authentic coins.

Contemporary counterfeits are highly collectible, but I don't think that this is one of them.

And, even if Contemporary Counterfeits ARE collectable, they are CERTAINLY NOT as valuable as a genuine one........

[scottishmoney]

Actually with some Scottish bronzes, notably those purported to have been created by the French soldiers stationed in Scotland during the reign of Mary QoS, they actually have much greater interest and value to specialised collectors. I have a counterfeit of a Charles I bodle that I paid the same price for as a crown issued example, but would have paid more if the price was more, just to have the counterfeit. I would like to find a decent counterfeit of a Bawbee from the reign of Charles II.

The reason the contemporary Scottish counterfeits are in a different league, is that they were destroyed in coinage recalls by the mint, and the penalty for even possession of counterfeits could be severe. In addition to revaluations, coins were countermarked to confirm authenticity, especially during the reign of James VI, with the Marian coinages being recalled and countermarked.

However with UK Georgian counterfeits of halfpennies, the obvious is true, they are valued much less, but then they are much much more common also.

Edited September 28, 2006 by scottishmoney

[Geordie582]

Some Continental contemporary copies of the English 13th/14th centuries are worth MORE than their equivalent "real" coins.

[Guest Aidan Work]

The same situation applies to the brass contemporary forgery of the extremely rare English King Edward VI 1/-.It actually circulated as a scarce 1d. coin in Connaught.The pink Coincraft catalogue mentions it,plus has photos of the piece.

Aidan.

[scottishmoney]

Some Continental contemporary copies of the English 13th/14th centuries are worth MORE than their equivalent "real" coins.

Those are really desirous so. Having collected so many Plantagenet coins, I like the knockoffs too. They were even made as far away as Germany. Says something about the sterling penny, it was respected.

[Geoff T]

I can't help feeling that the issue of slabbing is part of the much bigger picture of the difference between the American and the British mind-set. At risk of over generalising, I get the impression that the American mind thinks in absolutes. Consequently there has to be a definitive grading for a coin just as there has to be the definitive diet or lifestyle guru. Once you have the "right" answer, all others become wrong by default. The British mind, on the other hand, thinks in terms of grey areas and compromise rather than mutually exclusive polar opposites. Both approaches can be seen as having intrinsic strengths or weaknesses, although it appears the former produces particularly disastrous results when applied to foreign policy...

G

[scottishmoney]

I can't help feeling that the issue of slabbing is part of the much bigger picture of the difference between the American and the British mind-set. At risk of over generalising, I get the impression that the American mind thinks in absolutes. Consequently there has to be a definitive grading for a coin just as there has to be the definitive diet or lifestyle guru. Once you have the "right" answer, all others become wrong by default. The British mind, on the other hand, thinks in terms of grey areas and compromise rather than mutually exclusive polar opposites. Both approaches can be seen as having intrinsic strengths or weaknesses, although it appears the former produces particularly disastrous results when applied to foreign policy...

G

I believe it has more to do with the "investor/collector" mentality of many collectors in the USA. Frankly I purchase my coins purely for collector reason, I enjoy them as miniature artworks, with some monetary significance. Not as investments which are to be pawned off of in the near future. However to discuss numismatics here in the USA with other "collectors" there are not so many whom share said opin.

Hmm, foreign policy... too bad both cannot stand down for their misteps.

[Gary D]

I do wonder how many collect slabs because of what is written on the label rather than what is inside. All of the slabs I have purchased have been opened so that I can keep the coins in my coin cabinet. The first slab I bought was a 1902 penny ACG slab MS-64 Red which I got from ebay for $50 Buy it now. Now I guess $50 is a bit high for a 1902 penny but what was inside was a 1902 Low Tide which I guess is pretty cheap for $50.

Out of interest how does MS64 compare to British grades.

[Guest E. Dawson]

Geoff: Excellent points and well taken; diversity does seem healthy. I too hope that investors don't crush the middle market for UK coins.

http://www.teletrade.com/coins/lot.asp?auction=2266&lot=1018

Here is the update link for what this coin went for! Please help if this does not come up. Can you imagine that even thought the recent Baldwin 1856 penny went for 1500 pounds plus commission that this little bit would go for 4x the price!!

[Guest E. Dawson]

PS MS 64 should be choice mint state. Unfortunately ACG is in my experience not to be trusted and is a rather fly-by-night operation. Still opportunity may present as you have stated. I would be more inclined to trust PCGS or NGC and possibly ANACS.

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

PS MS 64 should be choice mint state. Unfortunately ACG is in my experience not to be trusted and is a rather fly-by-night operation. Still opportunity may present as you have stated. I would be more inclined to trust PCGS or NGC and possibly ANACS.

The only 3 that I have ANY CONFIDENCE in are: PCGS, NGC, and ANACS...... They at least attempt to be consistent...

Also, all to often, I have seen counterfeit or altered coins being certified with the other companies....

Mis-attributed coins, especially WORLD coins, happens to all, although moreso to the non big 3 firms....

Edited September 29, 2006 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[scottishmoney]

I am a bit of a purist, I believe the only grade which matters is your individual opin of the piece in question, and not the opin of another printed on some paper and tombed within corrosive plastics.