Grading Madness and Many $$$$ in the US of A

[Guest E. Dawson]

My Webpage

OK, I hope this link comes up as I think you blokes on the East side of "the Pond" will love this. This is a coin which at auction might bring 6,000 to 15,000 POUNDS STERLING! A humble cent that has no marks! I know you can not wait to hear the results and to see how foolish is foolish over here; but you may be able to find an American representative to bid for you here in the Teletrade auction.

Hey, at least the metal intrinsic value is rising......

[Guest E. Dawson]

http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article_view....&universeid=313

My apologies, try this - help me if any of you can in getting this link up.

[Emperor Oli 0]

  E. Dawson said:

http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article_view....&universeid=313

My apologies, try this - help me if any of you can in getting this link up.

whoops I just edited your post to fix the link but you beat me to it!

[Guest Aidan Work]

Chris,as this is nothing to do with British coins,I think that it should be shifted.

Aidan.

[Chris Perkins 228]

I couldn't get the link to work yet, perhaps it's my connection or the PCGS server.

I think this topic is probably themed on the quite wide gap between the collecting habits of those barmy Americans and the more reserved nature of the British gentleman collector, so it stays right here.

[Coppers 58]

  Chris Perkins said:

I couldn't get the link to work yet, perhaps it's my connection or the PCGS server.

I think this topic is probably themed on the quite wide gap between the collecting habits of those barmy Americans and the more reserved nature of the British gentleman collector, so it stays right here.

Precisely, but keep in mind that not all of us American collectors are taken in by this nonsense.

[Guest E. Dawson]

I think that the example was stated to illustrate a point, and also to help push away from any such thing happening to the British market. Also I find it rather amusing that some people get carried away by different aspects of numismatics. To take the opposing point of view, wouldn't most collectors rather have a superb mint state or FDC specimen than one worn so flat that the original design and even subtype is no longer clear.

Some would say collecting Vickies by die number or hypervarieties is equally ridiculous. Maybe a middle ground?

[Guest Aidan Work]

  E. Dawson said:

I think that the example was stated to illustrate a point, and also to help push away from any such thing happening to the British market. Also I find it rather amusing that some people get carried away by different aspects of numismatics. To take the opposing point of view, wouldn't most collectors rather have a superb mint state or FDC specimen than one worn so flat that the original design and even subtype is no longer clear.

Some would say collecting Vickies by die number or hypervarieties is equally ridiculous. Maybe a middle ground?

I see nothing wrong with anyone attempting to collect coins by die number as well as by date.It is a very interesting challenge that some British & British Commonwealth collectors try to undertake.

Aidan.

[Rob 3,221]

I once questioned a collector of milled shillings why he started at Anne and finished at Victoria, pointing out that a small extension at either end of the time scale would have given a complete run. The reply was that if he were logical, then surely he would not pay vast sums of money for little discs of metal only to stick them out of sight in a box.

Any collecting habits are always going to be a bit odd to someone, so should we really be criticising those chasing MS68-70 pieces, or die numbers or date runs. My MS65 & MS66 or unslabbed coins are safe from the first group of people yet I can search and acquire from their pool of supplies, I have coins which don't have die numbers and people who collect date runs must by definition typically not acquire the rare varieties, leaving these to the specialist.

There is enough to go around for every collector providing we don't all want the numismatic flavour of the month. If your chosen area gets too expensive, collect something else or alternatively run 2 or 3 different collections in parallel.

[Coppers 58]

  Rob said:

I once questioned a collector of milled shillings why he started at Anne and finished at Victoria, pointing out that a small extension at either end of the time scale would have given a complete run. The reply was that if he were logical, then surely he would not pay vast sums of money for little discs of metal only to stick them out of sight in a box.

Any collecting habits are always going to be a bit odd to someone, so should we really be criticising those chasing MS68-70 pieces, or die numbers or date runs. My MS65 & MS66 or unslabbed coins are safe from the first group of people yet I can search and acquire from their pool of supplies, I have coins which don't have die numbers and people who collect date runs must by definition typically not acquire the rare varieties, leaving these to the specialist.

There is enough to go around for every collector providing we don't all want the numismatic flavour of the month. If your chosen area gets too expensive, collect something else or alternatively run 2 or 3 different collections in parallel.

Rob... Everyone can and does collect as they choose. What is being questioned here is the wisdom of paying an extraordinary sum of money for piece of plastic without which the coin would be worth little if anything above face value.

[Guest E. Dawson]

Precisely. The Rodney King ("Can't we all just get along") approach is nice but the lunacy is as you say in the price fetched for bits of basal metal shrouded in plastic.

I will remind the reader and reference if required the 1963 proof cent in 70 that went for 40,000 USD and then developed a spot in its requisite PCGS holder which forced the PCGS company to buy the coin for its full amount since value had dropped to ONE DOLLAR!

As a postscript the certifiers must be given a bit of credit for standing behind their product however crazy the price.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 417]

What is a worsening situation, is that buyers (I'm not saying collectors deliberately), usually investors, who have little knowledge or interest in numismatics itself, buy these high grade and high priced otherwise common coins, simply for what is printed on the label.

Every true collector knows that grading is a subjective matter, and that at different times, with different graders, the coin can and often is graded differently. It has been shown as well, that the same coin, shown to the same grader, at a different time, can come back with a different grade.

I have never been a great fan of this ultimate grading scheme, however I do feel that there is still a need for certification services. They provide a means of preserving your coins in inert holders (if done correctly), and moreso, to provide a means to certify that coin is genuine. With modern technological abilities being applied towards a proliferation of counterfeit and/or altered date rarities (much more common here in the USA, than in GB), this, to me anyway, is a more vital service that they provide...

[TomGoodheart 434]

I have to say I'm fascinated E D. Not so much for the rarity of this particular coin, but just that it makes me ask... how the hell do they know that? Are you telling me that some poor PCGS employee spends all their time rooting through every bag of coins released by the mint for that one perfect specimen? Or was this sent in by someone for grading, in which case I guess it is exceptional, given that I have noticed the new British 2ps all have the same flaw so none of them would presumably qualify.

Anyhow... I do just love to see other people's collecting interests, although this sort of thing is about as far from my 'kind' of coin as you can get, so thanks for the link! As they say - variety is the spice of life!!

[Rob 3,221]

It's called image and personal ego. There will always be people who will feel the need to pay vast sums of money for that "special" grade of slabbed coin just as there will always be people who feel it necessary to have £100Ks worth of cars sitting in front of their house whilst having nothing in the bank, or to have the latest technological development irrespective of whether they already have an existing piece doing the job adequately.

[Guest E. Dawson]

PCGS and the other grading services only grade what is sent them, so they do not select what comes.

However, they are marketers extraordinaire and have devised along with the other larger service, NGC, a Registry scheme whereby collectors have sets of various denominations that are rated for preservation status and average grade scores for the collection are given (i.e. an Indian Head cent collection held by one person may have an MS 65.79 average and somebody else's may be 66.21). And so it is that there is established a competition and so as with the car example cited there are extreme examples of prices paid.

Don't forget that on the Cable TV and satellite TV systems we have Coin Shopping shows (esp. "Coin Vault") where enormous numbers of certified coins are sold.

I agree with Bronze Copper to a degree: I find that those minority of large module coppper Victoria pennies that I purchased in holders seem to be much better protected and give a sense of safety. I have almost reached the point of doing the same with some of the more valuable bits.

As another aside: we now have enormously more chemicals present in the home and work environment so that even those uncirculated coins that we possess that are brown or patinated may NOT have stable enough surfaces to resist; I will not review all of the dangerous solvents and cleaning agents like oven cleaner or even binders in our carpeting, flooring and walls!

[Peter 615]

Slabbed coins to me are too similar to Modern Royal mint issues.(ie no interest whatsoever)

The only time I would buy a slab is to break it open and introduce it into my collection.

Obviously in the US you have idiots (IMO) who are willing to pay huge sums for someone elses opinion of a 1 point higher grade.

Still it takes all sorts.

Hey Buddy leave them RAW coins to me.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 417]

  Peter said:

Slabbed coins to me are too similar to Modern Royal mint issues.(ie no interest whatsoever)

The only time I would buy a slab is to break it open and introduce it into my collection.

Obviously in the US you have idiots (IMO) who are willing to pay huge sums for someone elses opinion of a 1 point higher grade.

Still it takes all sorts.

Hey Buddy leave them RAW coins to me.

I basically agree insofar as the GRADING apsect of certification is involved, HOWEVER, I DO feel that the certification companies (albeit only the better ones {PCGS, NGC, ANACS}) DO provide an essential service to the COLLECTOR (not investor), by certifying that the coin in question is GENUINE.... Of vital importance here in the USA, where there are MANY coins that are worth in the $1000's even in LOW GRADE......

I care very little for the condition ascribed to a coin, so long as I am happy with it, but reat much easier knownign that the rare coin in question is genuine... A knowledgeable collector will generally SUSPECT that a coin has been altered or counterfeited, but with modern technological advances, the average collector does NOT have the equipment to confirm those suspicions, whereas the MAJOR RELIABLE sevices do. I emphasize MAJOR, because I have seen NON-GENUINE coins certified as genuine by the lesser sevices.

I emphasize that a knowledge of grading and conterfeiting/altering is important to any collector; ALWAYS buy the coin and not the holder (be happy with the coin itself), BUT I still feel that the MAJOR services DO provide a vital service nontheless..... (the non-grading portion)

[Peter 615]

Luckliy in the UK we haven't slipped down the slippery slope of slabbing...I think Lockdales tried to offer the service a few years back but it didn't cotton on.

We had Ashmore forgeries in the 60/70's where a tool maker produced remarkable forgeries using correct age Silver.(These are now collectable)

US supplies of coins seem dried up...luckily we live in a country where 2000+ years of coin history are still being dug up by new methods and the latest detectors.

I was recently speaking to a detectorist and saw his collection of coins dug up in Thetford Norfolk(an area of dry breckland sand)...his 17/18C copper coins were immaculate....when I hinted the value of these coins he was rather chuffed.

Lovely raw coins and an unlimited supply.

Edited September 23, 2006 by Peter

[scottishmoney 51]

Lockdales is still very much doing the slabbing thing. But I believe the difference which drives the hobby in Britain as opposed to the USA is that more people in Britain are collector purists, rather more into the hobby for the enjoyment of it, the thrill of the hunt etc. Whilst in the USA more of what drives the hobby is investment speculation. Being a bit more of a purists myself, I rather prefer a coin which appeals to my sensations rather than a number assigned on a piece of plastic by an anonymous individual in some third party grading institution.

[Guest Aidan Work]

I've always never liked the idea of slabbing,as those who deal in slabbed coins put a huge markup on their price above what a raw unslabbed coin would fetch.All you are really paying for is for the junk piece of plastic,& the piece of paper that masquerades as a certificate.

I can understand if the slab is one that was used to package the coin in at the mint.I have an Australian $5 1/20 oz. platinum Koala that is in a very small slab,but that is how it came from the Perth Mint.

Aidan.

[wybrit 2]

I think this topic is probably themed on the quite wide gap between the collecting habits of those barmy Americans and the more reserved nature of the British gentleman collector, so it stays right here.

Not all American collectors go for slabs or differentiate one grading point in the hopes of making a fast quid. In fact, I would put the barmy ones in a tiny minority. I attend a lot of shows here and see a lot of bargain hunters picking through junk boxes and half-price bins for their pieces. There are a lot of slabs too, but they seem to stay under glass most of the time.

There are other silly habits here, though, such as buying rolls of modern coins at a premium as an "investment.' You see them resold on ebay all the time in hopes of making a profit, but after ebay and PayPal fees, the seller may as well just spend the coins!

The MS 70 cent is a joke to me and many others. The business strike is less apt to get a spot on it, but think of all of the Gothic Florins you could get for that money!!!

[Geordie582 18]

I keep asking this - who grades the graders?

Edited September 26, 2006 by Geordie582

[TomGoodheart 434]

As I had suspected (hoped!), Wybrit confirms that not all US collectors have been bitten by the slab/grade bug. But there do seem to be quite a lot of them!

I did wonder why this should be. Is it that there just aren't enough old coins available? I'm sure that per capita (and especially considering the new material detectorists are unearthing daily) there are more coins around in the UK. But we still have 'new' coins, in varying degrees of 'perfection'. Why is it that UK collectors don't seem to be so keen to spend big bucks on such things?

Perhaps it's a mindset thing. Or marketing? If you aren't thinking of potential market value then 'perfection' becomes less critical - for most of us 'pleasing condition' will do. But if part of your pleasure comes from the idea of financial worth, it's different. 'Beanie babies' in mint condition / coins in slabs - what's the difference?

Will it last? I suspect that like me, quite a few of you will have started collecting by picking the nicest and unusual coin examples out of our change. But gradually, I at least, began to see that the most interesting coins weren't interesting because of what they look like but because of how they came to be made, what they could have bought and the sorts of people that might have owned them. In other words I started to move from being a 'collector' to a 'numismatist'.

Now I'm not saying that I no longer would like a good well made example of a coin. But for the above reasons, a new coin, a coin I can't touch, a coin that has no evidence of having ever circulated, is now less interesting to me.

I wonder if the US market will, with time, evolve away from aspiring for that perfect '70'. And at the same time perhaps people will start to gain more confidence in their own ability to assess a great coin and no longer delegate that task to the grading services?

[scottishmoney 51]

If you are a true collector all that really matters is how much you like the coin and how it appeals to you. I have coins which are in slabs, for instance:

Slabbed as VF-30, but then I have seen EF-45's which have much less eye appeal and have been cleaned etc. Anne has not been tooled, cleaned etc. She is all original.

I bought the coin, not the slab.

[Peter 615]

Now that is rather pleasant.