Survival Rates - British Bronze Coinage 1860-1970

[Red Riley 2]

Ever since it arrived, about a month ago, I have been trawling through the reprint of Michael Freeman’s ‘The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain’. When I came to page 200 which contains an explanation of rarity symbols and a note of the number of coins melted down by the Royal Mint, I paused.

To put this information in a nutshell, these are the approximate number of coins withdrawn by the mint for melting as compared with the total number produced:

Farthings: 8 million out of a total production of 750 million;

Halfpennies: 500 million out of a total production of 2,400 million;

Pennies: 2,000 million out of a total production of 4,100 million.

To put it another way there is 4/6d in loose change still knocking around for every man, woman and child in the country!

My first thought was that this information had not been updated since the book was originally published in 1970 (i.e. before the mass withdrawals resulting from decimalisation), but this does not explain perhaps the most surprising conclusion – that 95% of all bronze farthings made (demonetised 1960) still exist.

Now, I don’t like to doubt the great man’s word, but I find this wholly unbelievable. If the figures were reduced by a factor of ten, I would still find them difficult to believe.

Speaking personally, I have just over £1 worth of pre-decimal bronze knocking around the house –I am however, a collector and therefore have an excuse. But to expect every dwelling in the country to contain a similar amount of obsolete coinage stretches the bounds of credibility beyond breaking point.

[Guest E. Dawson]

Yes, we have only the RM statistics and Mr. Freeman's assessment. I would imagine it would be a hard point to prove, but that the farthings may not have been so loved and had a relatively low usage even with their time-relative increased buying power to say the penny of our own days. If this was the case, then their may indeed be stacks of them about.

Come to think of it, if you will recall it seems there are always piles of 1880's & '90's farthings showing up (I can recall loads of 1881 H's). I do wonder if there may have been more meltings in the war years (WWI and II) - perhaps somebody has some research to enlighten.

Still I agree with what appears to be your surmise - it seems doubtful that the farthing survival was all that great and that there surely must be other factors that have decreased their population.

[scottishmoney 51]

Accd to my records from whence I counted them, I have over £15 in predecimal bronze loitering around, and something along the lines of £85 in all predecimal coins.

[scottishmoney 51]

The farthing was discontinued in 1956, it had lost any value and was not a primary coin since early in the 19th century. In fact it had a slow miserous demise, by the time it was demonetised it had lost any value to purchase. Even the halfpenny and penny were redundant in terms of being somewhat overvalued for their actual purchasing power, remember it took 2.4 predecimal pennies to equal one "new penny".

Incredibly of my hoard of 7.000+ predecimal coins, I only number 30 farthings. Here is a breakdown of the "hoard":

Denomination Number of coins:

Farthing 30

Halfpenny 2937

Penny 1823

Threepence B 132

Threepence S 485

Sixpence 998

Shilling 530

Florin 85

Half Crown 16

Crown 7

Total 7043 coins

[Red Riley 2]

I think if we all added up our collections, we could amass a fair number of pieces, but don't forget we are looking at four and threequarter billion missing coins as being in the hands of collectors or at the back of Joe Soap's bottom drawer. Doesn't seem likely does it?

[Rob 3,228]

I think if we all added up our collections, we could amass a fair number of pieces, but don't forget we are looking at four and threequarter billion missing coins as being in the hands of collectors or at the back of Joe Soap's bottom drawer. Doesn't seem likely does it?

cdesteve probably has the 4 billion lower grade pieces, leaving only 3/4 billion high grade in other hands.

[Geordie582 18]

More to the point. Just what do you do with the hundreds of 'washers' we amass

Mine go back quite a way!

Edited December 15, 2006 by Geordie582

[TomGoodheart 446]

Oh, I don't know. Washers is a bit cruel! That Chas halfgroat is virtually uncirculated in ebay terms!

[scottishmoney 51]

The Edwardian penny is AU in ebayesque.

I will try to take a picture of my hoard sometime, it weighs in at about 45 kilos.

[Gary D 76]

A supplementary question. Do mintage figures have any baring now. You see low minage coins like the 1912H, 18 and 19 H/KN pennies, the 1930 2/6, 1952 6d and 1946/49 3d by the bucket on ebay but how often do you see high mintages like the 1967 penny. Perhaps the 1967 penny is the rare one now as all the others were collected over the years

[Teg 0]

Hi,

As this is a random sample I admit to about 2,500 bronze farthings.

A few points.

In 1960 the Mint thought there were about 200 million farthings in circulation - the other 550 million since 1860 - they did not know! (see attachment from 1960 times).

From 1860 on a fair few coppers went to Ireland and the colonies - you would need to factor that in - but I doubt it's a major figure.

Teg

[Red Riley 2]

Hi,

As this is a random sample I admit to about 2,500 bronze farthings.

A few points.

In 1960 the Mint thought there were about 200 million farthings in circulation - the other 550 million since 1860 - they did not know! (see attachment from 1960 times).

From 1860 on a fair few coppers went to Ireland and the colonies - you would need to factor that in - but I doubt it's a major figure.

Teg

Hey, that's fascinating. Perhaps we should put the millions of missing farthings in the same category as the eleven lost tribes of Israel and the conundrum of where flies go in the winter. I admit that your 2,500 is a start, but this is scarcely improved by my 10. Other than coin collectors, I know of nobody who admits to having any, so where are they all?

[Chris Perkins 228]

I've heard some big statistics about the number of coins lost each day by people. I expect a big number of the missing predecimal coins are in fields on beaches, down floor boards and buried in peoples gardens.

[Red Riley 2]

A supplementary question. Do mintage figures have any baring now. You see low minage coins like the 1912H, 18 and 19 H/KN pennies, the 1930 2/6, 1952 6d and 1946/49 3d by the bucket on ebay but how often do you see high mintages like the 1967 penny. Perhaps the 1967 penny is the rare one now as all the others were collected over the years

You may be right. For about 2 years prior to decimalisation and during the changeover period, I worked in my father's grocery shop and persuaded him to order some £10 of pennies every week. I duly went through all these, and do you know what I found? Virtually nothing. No KNs, no 1950-53 pennies, no MEs, nothing. The KNs are most significant as I don't believe they were ever that rare, the inference being that they had all been withdrawn from circulation by collectors. 12Hs were quite common and 18 and 19Hs would come in from time to time, but no more than half a dozen each during the whole period - and usually horrid. So yes, I think the rarer coins have survived in disproportionally high numbers. I do not however agree with your assertion that 1967 pennies could ever be sought after in any shape or form!

[Gary D 76]

A supplementary question. Do mintage figures have any baring now. You see low minage coins like the 1912H, 18 and 19 H/KN pennies, the 1930 2/6, 1952 6d and 1946/49 3d by the bucket on ebay but how often do you see high mintages like the 1967 penny. Perhaps the 1967 penny is the rare one now as all the others were collected over the years

You may be right. For about 2 years prior to decimalisation and during the changeover period, I worked in my father's grocery shop and persuaded him to order some £10 of pennies every week. I duly went through all these, and do you know what I found? Virtually nothing. No KNs, no 1950-53 pennies, no MEs, nothing. The KNs are most significant as I don't believe they were ever that rare, the inference being that they had all been withdrawn from circulation by collectors. 12Hs were quite common and 18 and 19Hs would come in from time to time, but no more than half a dozen each during the whole period - and usually horrid. So yes, I think the rarer coins have survived in disproportionally high numbers. I do not however agree with your assertion that 1967 pennies could ever be sought after in any shape or form!

Yes perhaps 1967 was not the best example to make my point but trying fill the Elizabeth II gaps is not easy as most dealers don't bother to deal with them. Too new at decimalisation, even given that tonnes were probably tucked away it must still be insignificant compared to the amount melted.

[josie 8]

Here in ireland also having trouble in finding farthing both ireland and GB, in the coin shop most of the coin I observe dont last long maybe tourist purchased them.as sourvenier or small change from thier holiday and carry along with them.

The charity, most of local charity from time to time garther collection mostly on shop and mostly small denomination is used on where it goes I dont know.any one who is familiar in eastcost area tesco greystones in the past put a cylinder roughly 3 feet by 1.2 feet dimension donate your all old and foriegn coin for local charity it reached several hundred thousand euro almost 300 thou not sure if it happens it could also happen in the past and to the coin dont know where it end up.

Change in life and moving places,before and after the decmalisation farthing as other mentioned already lost its value,mostly I maybe wrong it will be found in the skip,for Im buying worn and circulated penny and half penny in carbooth old folks laugh,even much more younger generation selling coins ireland coins only small denonimation from 1971 to 2000 thier reaction is pretty much desame.Well in every carbooth thier is a skip and those that are moving houses might do the same.

cashier vault most of the main offices have a finace dept. and they may have a vault even thier is someone going thier everday they dont check the whole room and corner or a tin can.

Hoarder dies and the one who left with the coins neglect and didnt know what to do. on where it goes I dont know.

Maybe placed a cylinder and note donate your old farthing for your NHS.

[josie 8]

Yes, we have only the RM statistics and Mr. Freeman's assessment. I would imagine it would be a hard point to prove, but that the farthings may not have been so loved and had a relatively low usage even with their time-relative increased buying power to say the penny of our own days. If this was the case, then their may indeed be stacks of them about.

Come to think of it, if you will recall it seems there are always piles of 1880's & '90's farthings showing up (I can recall loads of 1881 H's). I do wonder if there may have been more meltings in the war years (WWI and II) - perhaps somebody has some research to enlighten.

Still I agree with what appears to be your surmise - it seems doubtful that the farthing survival was all that great and that there surely must be other factors that have decreased their population.

Kind of thinking this tread and post,in 1943 copper usage in US drop upto a point to the creation of steal cent,but on freeman they still produce bronze coins in the 1940 in GB but different in composition for some metal came from asia,

Im just wondering or speculating how did GB gets its copper supply during the war for most of the mainland europe is under the nazis and on the other side US is in short supply,it is possible that other date of copper and bronze are melted but not recorded there is a junk shop or scrap yard on that time to melt those bronze and beside copper is needed for war as bullets and others.

It might be possible that thier is very few of them left and the nicer ones left are those coins that the collectors collect and kept before and after the first and second world war.and the bulk that comes out in the market is the hoard of others but other dates and denomination is already melted.

I cant see the flow how GB produce a bronze coin. that US on the far side atlantic and wide land north and south america to mine came in short supply,and GB cant access mainland europe where GB gets its copper for the 1940s and go at war at the same time.

[Red Riley 2]

Copper ore is extremely widely distributed, and although the domestic supplies had largely been worked out or abandoned as uneconomic by the start of WW2, there were ample commercial supplies in the US, Canada and Southern Africa. A surprisingly small amount of metal goes into coin production - e.g. the total amount of copper used by the Royal Mint on domestic coinage between 1860 and 1869 was only just over 2,300 tons and the amount used in WW2 would have amounted to less than one very small shipload.

[Geordie582 18]

Come to think of it, when I was undergoing my apprenticeship (in the RAF) I often used pennies and halfpennies , neatly drilled, as washers and 'shims' for various reasons, as did my contemporaries, - but - I don't think we can be accused of using 4.75 billion.

Edited January 25, 2007 by Geordie582

[josie 8]

I've heard some big statistics about the number of coins lost each day by people. I expect a big number of the missing predecimal coins are in fields on beaches, down floor boards and buried in peoples gardens.

Yes people lost coins specially the small denomination on predecimal coins.

But on pre 2 world war for me is fewer because their are some cities destroyed during the war and if Im not mistaken that the ruble was placed on a land fill how may homes, offices and bank during that time may also have a number of coins in different denominations but most probable the small denomination put on a jar or a tin for thier value is small and no purchasing power like the penny or half penny,If other survive brought by people going to the countryside to avoid the bombing and survived before decimalization hope they dont trow the small denomination in a skip to another land fill with plastic rubbish in it.

[scottishmoney 51]

Judging by dealers still selling bags of 5,000 pennies etc, I bet that quite a few of them survived in one fashion or another.

The 1943 zinc plated steel cent in the USA was not necessitated so much by a copper shortage, but has been suggested was more a publicity stunt to get people to convince people that the country was really in dire need of metal scrap for the war effort. Notice that the bronze cents returned in 1944-1946, albeit with allegedly recycled shell casings from the war.

The real short material all over the world was rubber, which then came primarily from Malaysia and Indonesia both occupied by Japan.

[josie 8]

Thanks scott

So another publicity made by the US and other publicity to gain support and public funds.

So many bronze coins survive but the number that is missing is unaccounted.

The commomwealth nation before they have thier independece what bronze coin they are using and who minted those coin did their coin came from GB or they have thier own mint for bronze coin.

Thanks scott

So another publicity made by the US and other publicity to gain support and public funds.

So many bronze coins survive but the number that is missing is unaccounted.

The commomwealth nation before they have thier independece what bronze coin they are using and who minted those coin did their coin came from GB or they have thier own mint for bronze coin.

[steveiow 0]

Just last Saturday,I recieved a 1947 Farthing in my change-passed off as a penny.

No idea where it came from,found it Sunday when looking at my change to see if I'd had a good night out!

Regards

Steve

[scottishmoney 51]

Just last Saturday,I recieved a 1947 Farthing in my change-passed off as a penny.

No idea where it came from,found it Sunday when looking at my change to see if I'd had a good night out!

Regards

Steve

I have wondered how often that might happen, farthings got a bit scarce late in the predecimal era but you have to wonder if it slipped out of a collection somewhere.

Out of 6000+ predecimal coins in my hoard, only 28 are farthings.

[Peter 615]

Just last Saturday,I recieved a 1947 Farthing in my change-passed off as a penny.

No idea where it came from,found it Sunday when looking at my change to see if I'd had a good night out!

Regards

Steve

Blimey

9.6 x face that looks a good deal.