Armageddon - British coin slabbing begins

[josie 8]

I will just email them everyday until they will have a representative in this forum.

If they dont sure others will watch thier company.

For now one name is familiar alex anderson other staff are unknown including thier credentials.

[Chris Perkins 228]

It might not be a good idea to email them everyday with a link to this forum! They might start hating me and Predecimal.com if you do that!

[scottishmoney 31]

Besides, be careful what you ask for, it might happen and result in an unpleasant experience. Look up what happened in the USA in a similar situation.

[josie 8]

OK CHRIS and sorry.

For sure you will include new variety in british coins in your books from CGS for a portion of coins will go there for verification and authentication,if they have a new find.If the company will last they will accumulate a portion of coins in high grade and wide variety in every denomination,lucky for those who work there they will have wide info on british coins and saw the actual coin.

To other readers inquire here first to british expert and its free.

scott.

I have no info on what happen to US kindly explain it to me more.

[scottishmoney 31]

Quite a few people and now companies were served with a costly lawsuit. 'Nuf said.

[josie 8]

Well CGS have to learn from US company that it will not happen to them.

One way is to take the pulse of the collector on other name services they will going to offer to hear or know diff. opinion and advice on different medium.

[TomGoodheart 400]

From the editorial of Coin News:

Any collector who buys a CGS encapsulated coin will know he has exactly what is described, no ifs, no buts, the coin will be what CGS says it is – if it isn’t he will get full market value for it from them. Now many will say that dealers offer that service anyway, that if you buy a coin from a reputable dealer and it isn’t what they say it is then they will give you your money back. Well yes, up to a point, but one of the biggest issues in recent years has been that of grading – what one dealer says is EF another might only grade as VF+ or even VF and that can mean a vast difference in the price and no real come back as it’s a very subjective issue with the original dealer arguing vehemently that the coin he sold was exactly what he said it was whilst the other argues just as hard that it isn’t – such arguments are not uncommon and the issue of grading is often one that sees heated exchanges in the trade!. CGS are endeavouring to make it less subjective and are prepared to put their money where their magnifying glass is by guaranteeing their grading, backed up with cold hard cash should they prove to be wrong.

Yes. But will Mark Rasmussen, Antony Wilson, Stephen Mitchell, Lloyd Roberts, Michael Gouby, Chris Perkins, Andy Bruce or Mike Vosper (to name but a few) agree that CGS' EF is EF or not? That remains to be seen. And what pray is CGS 'full market value' and who decides this?

(Not convinced yet, I'm afraid...)

[josie 8]

Loads of expert name in your post TOM are they all direct or indirect part of CGS?

If they are part of the company who will take the hot seat first.

They can used the line of dickinson 20 years of experience who will question that.

Well who will police just an idea BNTA.

[coin watch 1]

In the recent past I have seen coins that have been sold {with grading} by one of the above mentioned dealers to another of the above mentioned dealers, and that same coin later has been sold on again with a slightly different suggested grade. My point being that even with a coin that has been expertly graded it may well differ from one dealer to another and so makes grading so subjective.

With this in mind I think the same applies to the grading company, at the moment they are no more professional than the dealers with many years experience when it comes to grading, so personally I think that the given grade on a slabbed coin should not be taken as a guarantee of grade, at least until a company has had years of proven experience or until another party of higher authority assesses the grading companies. After all these companies are only trying to make profit out of all this.

I agree with Tom, I too am not conviced as yet.

[Chris Perkins 228]

By the way I think Josie misunderstood the above list. I am not involved with the coin grading venture and I don't believe any of those other dealers are either. Some big names though, nice of you to include little old me among them Goodheart!

[josie 8]

Yes you are right again CHRIS I misunderstood and lost about the post of TOM.

The question was the grade of the dealer against the grade of CGS.

Im Imagining things again that all those expert names are in collaboration with the CGS.

Thank you for the correction.

[Gary D 76]

I think the only possible ray of light in all this is with coins on ebay, at least they will be within a grade or so if slabbed unlike some of the wildly optimistic offering we get now.

[scottishmoney 31]

Go with your own grade and nothing else, nothing can be more true than your own opin of a coin.

[Geordie582 18]

Go with your own grade and nothing else, nothing can be more true than your own opin of a coin.

Not just endorsed, but that should be in the front of all numismatic publications!

[Chris Perkins 228]

Go with your own grade and nothing else, nothing can be more true than your own opin of a coin.

True, but there are many amateur collectors (and also more experienced ones) that overgrade coins because they feel they deserve to be a little bit better somehow! Or perhaps they paid too much and they want to justify the price. Overall though, you're quite right. Once a colector is confident in his field, he alone should be the judge, jury and collection executioner!

[Peter 615]

Once a library of images with respective grades is available it will be interesting to see where your own pieces fit in.

I can see the cream pieces commanding a premium.

I have been toying with the idea of submitting a couple of coins.

It will however mean I will need to locate duplicates for my proper collection.

[TomGoodheart 400]

Sorry about the delay replying. I've been occupied somehow!! The dealers I mentioned were just those I have bought from and found trustworthy and reliable josie.

I think that a guarantee from CGS is no more (or hopefully less) useful than one from one of the aforementioned dealers. All will no doubt buy back a coin for what you paid, minus expenses.

But I think if I told say Chris 'I bought such and such a coin from Roddy Richardson' that would give him an idea about the coin (and price!). CGS has still to establish any reputation so there's a risk that you can only get back close to what you paid from them.

It reminds me of the old days when I used to dabble on the stock market. There was also an 'unlisted securities market'. The shares there could perform remarkably well. But selling them again could be nigh impossible!

Happy New Year all!! And good luck with the collecting!

[josie 8]

What is the number now? Did they reached 2000 now?

[marvinfinnley 4]

Quite a few people and now companies were served with a costly lawsuit. 'Nuf said.

I speak as an American collector of high quality English coins, for the most part, milled silver. I have bought both slabbed and unslabbed coins, primarily through the auction venue, both in England and in America. Slabs are convenient to me from the standpoint of displaying my coins to others, especially non-collectors. I don't have to worry that someone will drop the coin out of a poly envelope or, worse yet, touch it with fingers. Air-tite holders are also good, but, at least in the states, one has to face reality that if one ever desires to sell expensive coins, in order to expose it to the maximum number of potential bidders (including "investors"), it helps to have the extra margin added by the knowledge that "professionals" agree that the coin is:

1. Genuine

2. Has original surfaces (not cleaned or artificially toned, particularly if copper or bronze)

3. Is correctly attributed with respect to variety

And that the authenticity is backed by some guaranty. The two leading grading services here (in America) have had to buy back coins that have been proven fakes after slabbing, so there is some protection for the buyer of slabbed coins from NGC and PCGS.

Granted that very experienced buyers and dealers probably don't need the slabbers to tell them whether a coin is worth a given amount of money, but when I purchased a coin for 16,000 GBP, I felt a bit better that it was in an NGC slab at PF66 Cameo, than if it hadn't been, as I know I can sell it more easily to another person. It's quite another thing to purchase a coin for 100 GBP.

So does the "true collector" need slabs? Again, it depends. For circulated coins, probably not; for very high grade expensive coins, well not unless he/she ever desires to sell them for the most possible money. Who among us collectors does not realize that our coins are not ours forever, and that we or our heirs will sell them (and probably slab the expensive ones after we are gone)? As prices go higher, I believe that eventually all the really rare and expensive coins will be in slabs. That's just my opinion.

[Rob 3,152]

Quite a few people and now companies were served with a costly lawsuit. 'Nuf said.

I speak as an American collector of high quality English coins, for the most part, milled silver. I have bought both slabbed and unslabbed coins, primarily through the auction venue, both in England and in America. Slabs are convenient to me from the standpoint of displaying my coins to others, especially non-collectors. I don't have to worry that someone will drop the coin out of a poly envelope or, worse yet, touch it with fingers. Air-tite holders are also good, but, at least in the states, one has to face reality that if one ever desires to sell expensive coins, in order to expose it to the maximum number of potential bidders (including "investors"), it helps to have the extra margin added by the knowledge that "professionals" agree that the coin is:

1. Genuine

2. Has original surfaces (not cleaned or artificially toned, particularly if copper or bronze)

3. Is correctly attributed with respect to variety

And that the authenticity is backed by some guaranty. The two leading grading services here (in America) have had to buy back coins that have been proven fakes after slabbing, so there is some protection for the buyer of slabbed coins from NGC and PCGS.

Granted that very experienced buyers and dealers probably don't need the slabbers to tell them whether a coin is worth a given amount of money, but when I purchased a coin for 16,000 GBP, I felt a bit better that it was in an NGC slab at PF66 Cameo, than if it hadn't been, as I know I can sell it more easily to another person. It's quite another thing to purchase a coin for 100 GBP.

So does the "true collector" need slabs? Again, it depends. For circulated coins, probably not; for very high grade expensive coins, well not unless he/she ever desires to sell them for the most possible money. Who among us collectors does not realize that our coins are not ours forever, and that we or our heirs will sell them (and probably slab the expensive ones after we are gone)? As prices go higher, I believe that eventually all the really rare and expensive coins will be in slabs. That's just my opinion.

Many of us would feel a lot happier if the reasons you give for buying a slab were true. Admittedly I have never seen a forgery slabbed but in my collection I have a significant number of pieces (~80) that were previously entombed, of which about 10% were incorrectly attributed and I couldn't agree with the grading of about 15 more which were MS63 or better and thus now had their wear "officially" ignored. A few examples as follows:

1. The 1675 over 3 over 2 1/2d in my gallery pictures and the unrecorded varieties section was slabbed NGC MS65BN thus ignoring the obvious 5 over 3 although the 2 I would excuse because it requires careful examination of the coin to see it. The BN attribution ignored the copious amounts of lustre and the 65 can not have taken into account the cabinet friction to 3 or 4 points on both sides clearly visible in the pictures.

2. The previous piece was bought to replace a 1675 over 3 which was slabbed 1673 PCGS MS64 which again ignored the wear and was no better than EF. It was discussed on another thread on this forum.

3. A 1723 1/- slabbed as ESC 1176, thus ignoring the obvious C/SS inthe third quarter.

4. The 1732/1 1/2d ex- Cheshire collection in my gallery was slabbed as a 1732 NGC MS65RB yet the 2/1 is blindingly obvious if you examine the coin.

5. A 1788 bronzed pattern halfpenny P967 slabbed PCGS PR65BN has a slightly greasy surface which I suspect means it has been "conserved".

6. A 1788 restrike 1/2d P1007 ex Selig 1351 was slabbed NGC PF65BN and has a similarly greasy surface.

7. A 1795 pattern 1/2d in my gallery was described as a P1051 NGC PF65BN in the Cheshire collection thus conveniently ignoring the unattributabe as it is an unrecorded later development of type R42 where curls have been added and then filled in. A P1051 has an extra curl under the bust which simply isn't there.

8. A P1248 1799 1/2d 5 incuse gunports in fact has 7 raised gunports ans was slabbed PCGS MS63BN. It also has a reasonable amount of wear.

9. A 1720 1/- ESC 1168 was slabbed NGC MS63. Not cleaned, my ****. Pictures attached below show the coin as it is today and as it was in Spink auction 4 lot 862. The flan error is clearly visible as are remaining marks which agree to the left of the tie ribbon by the R, above the Hanoverian shield, to the left of the Irish shield near the legend and inside and outside the garter circle. A lot of the toning is no longer there, but sufficient remains to make the connection. Spink in their sale graded it extremely fine, a grade with which I concur due to the slight wear to the high points - or in slab speak "MS".

10. Although it wasn't mine, I also saw an Elizabeth 1st £1/2 slabbed as a 6th issue but with mintmark woolpack which is 5th issue. The 50% higher price for the 6th issue was very beneficial to the seller who thus realised a premium to the 5th issue price. Although I must question the knowledge of the buyer.

11. Again not mine. The 1860 copper 1/2d ex-Norweb which was in both Goldberg and Heritage auctions recently was slabbed PF66BN. This coin has cabinet friction to the shield and a thumbprint across the bust or at least it did have when it was sold at London Coins sale in November 2004. How can this get PF66.

Maybe I'm the exception, but where I find an error in attribution or of apparent doctoring of the coin in at least 10% of all I see, I think it is a significant problem. There are a lot of "bright" silver coins out there in slabs. 300 year old silver is not bright as originally struck unless it has been hermetically sealed. The vast majority of these untoned coins have been dipped. Is dipping not cleaning? How carefully is the coin examined? The number of "mint state" graded coins with wear suggests not much.

Frankly, if I was going to spend £16K on a coin, I would only buy it if it wasn't slabbed so I could see what I was getting, especially the edge which is hidden from view in most slabs.

Slabbing won't go away because too many people and particularly in the US take it as gospel that the coin is as described and the existing businesses have built up a very lucrative cash cow which they would be unwilling to forego. Slabbing is a triumph of marketing over knowledge. But as a person who feels confident in his ability to identify wear and other features I despair.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Rob

[scottishmoney 31]

Frankly it would be like a British slabbing outfit entombing and attributing American coinages based on what they perceived the varieties were etc. But any slabbing operation can get something wrong:

This is one of three coins I own that is still currently entombed. It is also my most dear coin in terms of value, so I am hesitant to liberate it. But the label is wrong in most opinions...

Care to guess what?

[Rob 3,152]

Frankly it would be like a British slabbing outfit entombing and attributing American coinages based on what they perceived the varieties were etc. But any slabbing operation can get something wrong:

This is one of three coins I own that is still currently entombed. It is also my most dear coin in terms of value, so I am hesitant to liberate it. But the label is wrong in most opinions...

Care to guess what?

1967 penny ex Alderley Collection

[Rob 3,152]

Frankly it would be like a British slabbing outfit entombing and attributing American coinages based on what they perceived the varieties were etc. But any slabbing operation can get something wrong:

I quite agree anyone can get things wrong, we all do it every day. The problem is the high failure rate in providing an accurate grade or attribution. Slabbing businesses are based on their people having special knowledge which no others have and thus guaranteeing a coin is uncirculated for example. An uncirculated coin can't have wear. This isn't negotiable. The end number can indicate the quality of the coin, but you can't call a coin mint state when it is worn. The number of coins given MS63 or better grades that have actual signs of wear is huge. Given the reputations of the various companies are allegedly based on accurate grading and quality control I find the whole thing extremely frustrating. If the whole market is similar to my experiences, then I would say that about a quarter of grades/attributions are wrong. How many manufacturers could get away with a 25% failure rate? Very few if the truth be known. The problem is that coins are always overgraded if incorrect, so their owners are unlikely to object to a bit of useful grade inflation when it translates into hard cash. It's an unholy alliance giving guaranteed customer satisfaction because if you think it could be given a better grade, you just keep resubmitting until the right number appears on the insert.

The question of incorrect atttribution can only be down to lack of knowledge and experience regarding British coins. I don't believe they deliberately call it wrong, just that they don't take the necessary amount of time to examine and thus determine what it is they are looking at. I therefore wonder why they risk their reputation by giving grades that are frequently wide of the mark or ignoring the numerous varieties, many of which are impossible to ignore. Or is it simply a case of "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king"?

Edited February 7, 2007 by Rob

[scottishmoney 31]

Curiously my coin above, with good eye appeal, and low wear, grades points lower than many coins you see for sale, it is as though the dark colour was a put off or the grader was cut off the night before.

[Hussulo 6]

I agree with marvinfinnley to a certain extent in that slabbed coins offering a certain amount of protection for the novice collector, there are a lot of fakes out there. They are also in my opinion good at grading modern coins.

However Rob does make some very valid points. They aren't always good at varieties and as for the older coins they tend to over grade. They seem to almost say well it is 300 years old so you would expect some wear. We'll just grade it Unc.

An uncirculated coin can't have wear irrespective of age.

Below is a 1697 6d graded MS61 by NGC. It is one of mine and even though MS61 is low in their uncirculated range it is still graded uncirculated.

The coin does show adjustment marks etc, but it also shows wear. I would not have bought it for the same price as an uncirculated coin of the same type. I did get it for VF price so I'm happy.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Hussulo