1818 crown

[Guest john field]

i have an 1818 crown with one side upside down is this common?

[Emperor Oli 0]

Yes, this is what's known as the die axis. In this case it is Up-Down (that meaning the obverse is facing the right way, but when you turn it around, the reverse is upside down). If you attach a picture, we can value it if you want but you'd have to also include the edge inscription with it as there are many varieties. So in conclusion, it is common - it would be rare if both sides were the right way around!

[mint_mark 9]

Hi John, upside down is usual for those crowns.

If you have to turn it top to bottom to see the other side correctly then that is called "coin" rotation (or up-down) and if you have to turn it left to right then that is called "medal" rotation (imagine a medal suspended from the top).

Mostly some countries do it one way and some do it the other but occasionally they change their minds and sometimes you can get both orientations in one issue of coins, but it's only scarce or valuable if they were all supposed to be the same and a few were done the other way by mistake.

[william 0]

Why do some English predecimal coins have 'up down', and some 'up up'?

[Guest john]

thankyou for your info on my coin but sorry im not selling it.

ive only just started collecting and am just interested why.

[mint_mark 9]

I don't think there there is a technical reason... it must just be a matter of how the dies are mounted in the machine (is "press" the correct name?). If it was just up to the person fitting the dies then we'd see more variation, since any one issue uses several sets of dies. As well as up-up and up-down sometimes you get mistakes where the sides of a coin are rotated by an unusual amount (say 25 degrees) with respect to each other, and these are usually considered errors. I have an early 20th century Chinese coin like this, but with that issue spelling mistakes are common, so I imagine they just didn't bother about the alignment.

For coins where they do bother, I think of the alignment as part of the design. Up-up is just a convention, like changing the direction of the monarch's head, but we didn't always do it that way.

[Sylvester 15]

I don't think there there is a technical reason... it must just be a matter of how the dies are mounted in the machine (is "press" the correct name?). If it was just up to the person fitting the dies then we'd see more variation, since any one issue uses several sets of dies. As well as up-up and up-down sometimes you get mistakes where the sides of a coin are rotated by an unusual amount (say 25 degrees) with respect to each other, and these are usually considered errors. I have an early 20th century Chinese coin like this, but with that issue spelling mistakes are common, so I imagine they just didn't bother about the alignment.

For coins where they do bother, I think of the alignment as part of the design. Up-up is just a convention, like changing the direction of the monarch's head, but we didn't always do it that way.

Up down is called 'coin alignment'

up up is called 'medal alignment'

Up down was traditionally used for coins, whilst up up was used for medals and special strikes such as proofs.

British coins first tried up up alignment in 1787, but for the most part reverted back to coin alignment, until 1816 when some coins were minted in medal alignment again, by 1821 though coin alignment was back in for the most part. It wasn't until 1887 that medal alignment was accepted as standard.

[william 0]

Very interesting. Thanks Sylvester and mint_mark!

[mint_mark 9]

British coins first tried up up alignment in 1787, but for the most part reverted back to coin alignment, until 1816 when some coins were minted in medal alignment again, by 1821 though coin alignment was back in for the most part. It wasn't until 1887 that medal alignment was accepted as standard.

OK then, maybe you can answer another question

I have some Guernsey coins and they seem to be medal rotation in some years towards the end of the 19th century (1864, 1889, 1893) and coin rotation otherwise. Unfortunately I don't have a complete set of dates and none of my books mentions it. I don't have two denominations from the same year with different orientations... so the question is, is this a per year difference or can you get some years with both orientations? Also, was it a deliberate design change or an accident?

I should point out that medal rotation is by no means universal around the world... up until they adopted the Euro the modern coins of Spain and Portugal were coin rotation, but even they changed their minds now and again over the years

[Sylvester 15]

I should point out that medal rotation is by no means universal around the world... up until they adopted the Euro the modern coins of Spain and Portugal were coin rotation, but even they changed their minds now and again over the years

I was talking from a mainland perpective, a British one at that.

Dunno a thing about Guernsey coins, but i bet Harold Fears might... (he's into Jersey coins mostly)

Post your question here...

http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?hl=en&lr...ollecting.coins

Germany had coin alignment too until it got Euroised, no?

And our good friends in the US still use coin alignment.

[Emperor Oli 0]

Harold Fears

Wow that's nearly as good as Max Powers

[Sylvester 15]

Wow that's nearly as good as Max Powers

nearly...

they call me Mr Power, but you can call me Max... ditdedee D'oh!

[Emperor Oli 0]

I've just noticed the forum's clocks aren't forward

[Chris Perkins 228]

Have a look in the technical area...

[Emperor Oli 0]

Bingo

[mint_mark 9]

Dunno a thing about Guernsey coins, but i bet Harold Fears might... (he's into Jersey coins mostly)

His website about Jersey coins is truly amazing... he researched original documents from the royal mint records to verify mintage numbers. That's where I went to learn about why Jersey started with 1/13th shilling coins and changed to 1/12th shilling.

http://www.jerseycoins.com/ Well worth a visit!

[Sylvester 15]

His website about Jersey coins is truly amazing... he researched original documents from the royal mint records to verify mintage numbers. That's where I went to learn about why Jersey started with 1/13th shilling coins and changed to 1/12th shilling.

http://www.jerseycoins.com/ Well worth a visit!

I told you he knew his stuff!

[Sylvester 15]

I jsut can't help but get the feeling we missed out...

See the picture at the bottom.

http://home.hiwaay.net/~hfears/com_2/com_2o.htm

[william 0]

Damn Jersey! They get a £2 coin with the Machin picture of Elizabeth!!

[Sylvester 15]

Damn Jersey! They get a £2 coin with the Machin picture of Elizabeth!!

i thought you'd appreciate that, i know i wanted Machin back too!

[william 0]

It's so much nicer than the Maklouf one and the Ian Rank-Broadly one isn't it!

[Sylvester 15]

It's so much nicer than the Maklouf one and the Ian Rank-Broadly one isn't it!

Too right!

[Geoff T 3]

The latest edition of Coincraft's "The Phoenix" freesheet describes the Gillick head as being the Machin head several times in one section (but then it does appear to be written by people who wouldn't get through GSCE English).

[Sylvester 15]

The latest edition of Coincraft's "The Phoenix" freesheet describes the Gillick head as being the Machin head several times in one section (but then it does appear to be written by people who wouldn't get through GSCE English).

Ah some people!

You know i never thought much of the Gillick head at first, but the more of it i see the more i appreciate it!

It also helps if it's well struck and the Queen doesn't look naked.

Once you realise she does have a jacket on, but if you spent most of your early collecting life looking at worn florins you'd never have guessed!

[mint_mark 9]

I was always disappointed at how poorly struck the 1953 coins seem to be