Re: 1860 Mule Farthing

[Colin G. 147]

I know we have had a lot of talk recently about grading companies and their abilities, and this is an example which I feel demonstrates that the companies in the US are great with US coins but not with UK coins.

There is currently an auction on ebay for a slabbed 1860 mule, which caught my attention. The price looked reasonable for a slabbed 1860 mule which was showing signs of lustre, but it was difficult to confirm the variety from the existing images. I enquired about better images of the coin and in the sellers defense he provided them very quickly and courteously. The issue is that it is my opinion that this is a toothed/toothed border farthing which it would appear has been incorrectly slabbed by PCGS (a verification check on the cert number does show this to be in the PCGS database as a mule). It does not bear the signs of a beaded border reverse and the single rock to the left of the lighthouse confirms this fact.

I write this post to try and inform potential buyers of my opinion, and I have written to the seller in the hopes that by showing comparisons he will agree with the error and pursue this with PCGS.

[josie 8]

Thanks for the info.

For me a slab coin that may fall to further studies,for there are GB expert in other company but other opinion may vary,on who is right it is up to the recognized body to verify and who is the recognized in GB coin collecting,I dont know.

Hope someday all expert dealer that tom onced post may be united in one movement and with other body for the verification of coin to avoid this kind of thing.and be well presented in world coin collecting.just a comment.

[Hussulo 6]

Hi Colin,

Is this mule still for sale and do you have a link to it?

[josie 8]

It is on ebay if Im not mistaken

search engine farthing more pricise farthing 1860 slab and its on buy it now.

dont want to post the link its up to you.

[Colin G. 147]

Hi Colin,

Is this mule still for sale and do you have a link to it?

Yes it is still for sale.

Mule

[Colin G. 147]

It is on ebay if Im not mistaken

search engine farthing more pricise farthing 1860 slab and its on buy it now.

dont want to post the link its up to you.

Josie,

I know how you feel, I was really unsure about what to do with this item. Do you ignore it and let people bid on something that is not what it appears to be with the view that it is buyer beware. The problem with that is that it is a lot of money for someone to invest into something when it is not what it seems. I sympathise with the seller because they are stuck with the item and the error is not theirs.

I sent a polite e-mail to the seller stating my view and explaining the features that are found on a beaded border reverse and referred them to the coins in Colin Cookes collection and the comparisons on my site. I even offered to put something in writing if they did want to take the issue up with the grading company.

I am not interested in trying to bad mouth sellers and I have no problems with this seller who has been courteous and efficient in their response throughout the process, and I have to admit if I was in their position I would probably treat my e-mail with a bit of suspicion and would want to check it out before deciding what to do, but I feel as a member of the numismatic community that I should advise people of my opinion. I also would not put this opinion forward unless I was sure of my comments.

[RLC35 288]

It is on ebay if Im not mistaken

search engine farthing more pricise farthing 1860 slab and its on buy it now.

dont want to post the link its up to you.

Josie,

I know how you feel, I was really unsure about what to do with this item. Do you ignore it and let people bid on something that is not what it appears to be with the view that it is buyer beware. The problem with that is that it is a lot of money for someone to invest into something when it is not what it seems. I sympathise with the seller because they are stuck with the item and the error is not theirs.

I sent a polite e-mail to the seller stating my view and explaining the features that are found on a beaded border reverse and referred them to the coins in Colin Cookes collection and the comparisons on my site. I even offered to put something in writing if they did want to take the issue up with the grading company.

Colin,

I looked at the eBay ad, but could not see the coin well enough to determine if it was a real mule or not. The farthing mule is know to be poorly struck on the reverse, and some of the "dots" are known to have legs. The deciding factor in that case are the rocks to the left of the lighthouse, there should not be a single rock, per Peck, but multiple smaller rocks. Do you still have the enhanced pic of the coin you received? If so, can you post it?

Bob C.

I am not interested in trying to bad mouth sellers and I have no problems with this seller who has been courteous and efficient in their response throughout the process, and I have to admit if I was in their position I would probably treat my e-mail with a bit of suspicion and would want to check it out before deciding what to do, but I feel as a member of the numismatic community that I should advise people of my opinion. I also would not put this opinion forward unless I was sure of my comments.

[josie 8]

Thanks collin for another info.

You are already an expert in this field,

Sending a email to the seller is a good part on your side.

But for me it is also a good part to ask how other company arrived to that conclusion not only by one expert like you, but a collaboration of expert to querry the slabbing of other company to medium which is effective through letters of querry, that in the future they may correct the description or avoid in the future.

Thus other expert and body in GB base in UK can question directly other company that they are not satisfied with thier description and the result will be the correction of the slab in the future?

[josie 8]

It is on ebay if Im not mistaken

search engine farthing more pricise farthing 1860 slab and its on buy it now.

dont want to post the link its up to you.

Josie,

I know how you feel, I was really unsure about what to do with this item. Do you ignore it and let people bid on something that is not what it appears to be with the view that it is buyer beware. The problem with that is that it is a lot of money for someone to invest into something when it is not what it seems. I sympathise with the seller because they are stuck with the item and the error is not theirs.

I sent a polite e-mail to the seller stating my view and explaining the features that are found on a beaded border reverse and referred them to the coins in Colin Cookes collection and the comparisons on my site. I even offered to put something in writing if they did want to take the issue up with the grading company.

I am not interested in trying to bad mouth sellers and I have no problems with this seller who has been courteous and efficient in their response throughout the process, and I have to admit if I was in their position I would probably treat my e-mail with a bit of suspicion and would want to check it out before deciding what to do, but I feel as a member of the numismatic community that I should advise people of my opinion. I also would not put this opinion forward unless I was sure of my comments.

Thanks Im still learning having 2 thought, and hussolu ask colin not anybody, and Im being forwarn by other expert member post in other tread about comments and opinion specially regarding company base in US.

For I have an idea where this thread is going or I just push it to far in my mind so Im cautious.

[Gary D 76]

US companies grading non-US coin is always going to be open to errors just as any other nations companyies grading coins from elsewhere. One of my very early purchase on ebay was a slabbed 1902 penny. It was slabbed as 1902 penny MS63 if I recall correctly and had a 'buy it now' of $50. The coin was actuallt a 1902 low tide, needless to say, I couldn't push that 'buy it now' button fast enough.

[Colin G. 147]

The rocks to the left of the lighthouse was the factor I used in determining the authenticity of the item, and this is what I explained to the seller. The single rock is clear on the larger images, but I am hesitant about posting someone elses images on a forum.

If you ask the seller for the images, I am sure they would send them to you.

[josie 8]

Me too the copyright and posting info on published book as on other book thier is a warning in posting and encrypting even in electronic form.

[RLC35 288]

Thanks Colin. I understand your reasoning.

Regards,

Bob C.

[RLC35 288]

I just took a look at the mule from enlarged pictures. Although the beads/toothes were not as sharp as I would have liked, I do not feel that the farthing for sale is a mule. Mostly based on the lrge rock to the left of the lighthouse (Peck, pag 440/441). A couple of other things are the 0 of 1860 touhes the outher ring. On the mule it does not. Also the beads/toothes appear to be closer to the outer ring, which in fact should be the opposite.

Bob C.

PS the coin has SOLD!

[Colin G. 147]

Ouch!! that is one expensive 1860 TB farthing!!

[Peter 615]

Sold to Gary schindler...does anyone know him or had dealings with him.

He might like to read this thread.

[RLC35 288]

I sent him a note, when I saw he had purchased the Mule.

Bob C.

[scottishmoney 29]

Cannot imagine spending £400 for a coin with such a lousy small image. At least it is in a first generation PCGS holder, so it is more likely to be accurately graded.

I sent him a note, when I saw he had purchased the Mule.

Bob C.

Watch what you say, then eBay can suspend you if they believe you were interferring

[josie 8]

Thats another info scott. thanks

[RLC35 288]

I think the Buyer and the seller are acquainted, and a return guarantee has been offered if the coin is not as represented.

Bob C.

[Gary D 76]

Gary Schindler posts on here regularly and knows his bronze. I'm sure he will have been in contact with the seller during the auction.

[Guest Guest]

Hello...to all of you that are concerned about the mule was being offered on e-bay.. Thank you all for your concern, and i understand your trepidation..as i am not a coin dealer..Please let me clarify the coins that are being offered are from my father James J. Martino, AKA Mr. Coins..out of Long Island N.Y. ,he has over 30 years experience as a coin dealer..and as to the coin in question, most definitally an assurance of return gaurentee is present as with all of the items i offer on e-bay.. I physically checked the coin for the presence of the 3 small rocks to the left of the lighthouse and they are distinguishable , although not so in the photogrpahs, also the beading is very clear on the revers, it is not toothed..Thank you all for your concern and your Dilligence..I will be offering more coins from my Fathers private collection as he is not well these days and has asked me to make listings for him..

Sincerly

Mark Martino

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

Sold to Gary schindler...does anyone know him or had dealings with him.

He might like to read this thread.

That's me.....

I know that there has been a question as to whether this was mis-attributed.. The seller did send me new pics, which did look like RB's... I send him images of both and he says it is like the RB reverse..... I know of his father, whose collection/stock this is from....

He said that he will guarantee the coin with a return privilege.... I will make sure to put that into the paypal payment to cover myself...... and hope that I won't have any problems......

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

Hello...to all of you that are concerned about the mule was being offered on e-bay.. Thank you all for your concern, and i understand your trepidation..as i am not a coin dealer..Please let me clarify the coins that are being offered are from my father James J. Martino, AKA Mr. Coins..out of Long Island N.Y. ,he has over 30 years experience as a coin dealer..and as to the coin in question, most definitally an assurance of return gaurentee is present as with all of the items i offer on e-bay.. I physically checked the coin for the presence of the 3 small rocks to the left of the lighthouse and they are distinguishable , although not so in the photogrpahs, also the beading is very clear on the revers, it is not toothed..Thank you all for your concern and your Dilligence..I will be offering more coins from my Fathers private collection as he is not well these days and has asked me to make listings for him..

Sincerly

Mark Martino

I'm pleased that you found this forum and have made this statement, as it makes me feel even more at ease in this transaction, especially should the coin turn out to have been mis-attributed, and I have to return it to you....

I will let the forum know the outcome in either instance...

I'm sure, in either scenario, the forum members will have no trepidation in bidding on your items in the future, since you have been so forthright about this item, with your assessment and return guarantee....

Also, speaking for myself and the forum, since I have met your father in the past... We all wish him well....

Hello...to all of you that are concerned about the mule was being offered on e-bay.. Thank you all for your concern, and i understand your trepidation..as i am not a coin dealer..Please let me clarify the coins that are being offered are from my father James J. Martino, AKA Mr. Coins..out of Long Island N.Y. ,he has over 30 years experience as a coin dealer..and as to the coin in question, most definitally an assurance of return gaurentee is present as with all of the items i offer on e-bay.. I physically checked the coin for the presence of the 3 small rocks to the left of the lighthouse and they are distinguishable , although not so in the photogrpahs, also the beading is very clear on the revers, it is not toothed..Thank you all for your concern and your Dilligence..I will be offering more coins from my Fathers private collection as he is not well these days and has asked me to make listings for him..

Sincerly

Mark Martino

I'm pleased that you found the forum and made this post here, as it may allay some of the questions that have arisen over this coin, and has also provided me with a little more piece of mind, should the coin turn out to have been mis-attributed, and I have to ask for a refund....

I'm also sure, that in either instance.. and I will let the forum know the outcome.... there will be no trepidation to purchase from you in the future....

Speaking for myself and the forum, as I have met him in the past... We all wish him well ......

[RLC35 288]

To Mark and Gary S....

Very professional arraignment. Good luck to you both!

Go Colts! (Superbowl Sunday)

Bob C.