1860 Farthing TB/BB mule

[Dustyboy 0]

This is an open letter from Dustyboy, the owner of the 1860 TB/BB farthing currently being offered, once again for sale on E-Bay and it is intended for ALL those who have chosen to partake in the discussions on the Predecimal Forum site in the past couple of months as regards to the 1860 TB/BB farthing mule. It is meant also for those who are currently forming and stating their opinions as to the attribution of the 1860 TB/BB farthing mule in question.

As you are no doubt aware by this time, that this coin was attributed not ONCE but TWICE, by PCGS and both times the coin was found to be attributed correctly.

PCGS has so stated in writing, not only in a letter to myself, but has also stated their opinion concerning this coin in the forum. (Post#61) As was suggested by some members of the forum this coin was submitted to PCGS the second time with the understanding (at least by myself) that, if indeed the coin came back as originally attributed, then that would end the discussions about the coin not being a TB/BB mule.

However, this seems not to be the case.

Now it appears that PCGS, is being asked to guarantee the investment in said coin even before it is sold. (Refer to forum post #75 & post # 80)

While on the subject of guarantees, I further suggest that, you reread forum (post # 61), written by the president of PCGS, Ron Cuth. In the last line of his statement I believe that he does state that PCGS does indeed stand by it’s designation of the coin in question as to being a TB/BB farthing mule.

I really cannot understand why there are still those of you in the forum, who still choose to believe that only they are right and that PCGS is indeed wrong. If the forum members really feel that they are so sure of themselves, then I would suggest that they purchase the said coin in question and then submit it to their own experts.

After all, they have nothing to lose but their reputations and their money if their experts agree with PCGS and everything to gain (money plus a big boost to their reputations) if their experts say that PCGS is indeed wrong and IF, PCGS accepts their expert’s opinion in the matter... I think that now it is time as stated above, either purchase the coin and submit it to your own experts or accept the PCGS designation of this coin and STOP trying to hinder or impede the sale of this coin, because it is my belief that is what is being done.

.

Thank you,

Dustyboy

[josie 8]

WELCOME

Till next time.

[Teg 0]

Hi,

Welcome Dustyboy, you seem to be acting fairly - and caught in the middle of a 'dispute' between PCGS and some opinionated posters (like me) here.

I won't be taking you up on your offer to buy the item, $3,500 for an $80 coin. In the hope that I would be able to recover the difference from PCGS.

You seem to say that PCGS are experts in the attribution of British Farthings. I do have a lot of time for Ron Guth (still) but is he an expert here? Your coin is not the Peck or Freeman mule (which I think Ron acknowledges). PCGS are trying to add an extra type to the TB/BB mule. Your eBay listing quotes prices realised for accepted mules, yours is a different type.

The true mule is possibly the rarest bronze farthing. If we add in toothed revs that have a few detached teeth - it is very common.

I give a quote from Colin Cooke's list 48 - on this list he also sells M.J. Freeman's GVF Mule for £300.

"A so-called 1860 Mule Farthing was sold on an eBay auction in January 2004, in around VF (with dark patches) for £313.03. Only trouble was that it was NOT a mule but an ordinary TB both sides! Moral, take care! If in doubt, check them out, before you buy."

As I have said before, I sold Colin an 1860 mule - when I upgraded mine. I have discussed this at length with Colin - pity he is no longer here.

As far as I know no one on this forum has any reason to 'hinder' the sale of this coin. Some collectors - like myself - are willing to give their EXPERT opinions, especially on such a rare coin.

Good luck!

Teg

[RLC35 288]

Hi,

Welcome Dustyboy, you seem to be acting fairly - and caught in the middle of a 'dispute' between PCGS and some opinionated posters (like me) here.

I won't be taking you up on your offer to buy the item, $3,500 for an $80 coin. In the hope that I would be able to recover the difference from PCGS.

You seem to say that PCGS are experts in the attribution of British Farthings. I do have a lot of time for Ron Guth (still) but is he an expert here? Your coin is not the Peck or Freeman mule (which I think Ron acknowledges). PCGS are trying to add an extra type to the TB/BB mule. Your eBay listing quotes prices realised for accepted mules, yours is a different type.

The true mule is possibly the rarest bronze farthing. If we add in toothed revs that have a few detached teeth - it is very common.

I give a quote from Colin Cooke's list 48 - on this list he also sells M.J. Freeman's GVF Mule for £300.

"A so-called 1860 Mule Farthing was sold on an eBay auction in January 2004, in around VF (with dark patches) for £313.03. Only trouble was that it was NOT a mule but an ordinary TB both sides! Moral, take care! If in doubt, check them out, before you buy."

As I have said before, I sold Colin an 1860 mule - when I upgraded mine. I have discussed this at length with Colin - pity he is no longer here.

As far as I know no one on this forum has any reason to 'hinder' the sale of this coin. Some collectors - like myself - are willing to give their EXPERT opinions, especially on such a rare coin.

Good luck!

Teg

Teq, I think you are correct in the fact that no one here on the forum wishes Dustyboy and ill will. With that said, we have a differance of opinion (and most agree) that the Peck/Freeman definition of the 1860 Mule, having a "full" beaded reverse, not beads from only 4 to 5 o'clock. It is well to note that PCGS is careful to say, in their letter, that the coin only has beads in certain area's, and does not note a full beaded reverse.

In many cases the forum here, has helped keep sellers on eBay from making a mistake by listing coins as a mistaken variety. As you know the last thing that eBay cautions, when you sell, is that you guarantee the coin to be genuine before you hit the "sell" button. If we have helped try to clarify what the original type of the 1860 Mule looks like, and the tell tale Identification marks (multiple rocks, 130 beads, 0 doesn't touch outer rim, beads are closer to the inner rim than outer rim) then we have provided an added support to proper identification.

The item being placed for sale...is your selection, and I wish you well. I would never do anything to hamper the sale of your item, as I have no benefit either way in that scenario.

I do have an additional comment regarding PCGS. I would have expected that with their international reputation, they would have gone out of their way to obtain an independant, English, appraisel of the coin, since any cloud over a graded piece from them, leaves a doubt in the viewers mind. This does not keep the piece from selling, however.

I have PCGS graded coins and I have always considered PCGS to be the "standard" from which other USA graders hope to achieve. I also have a high regard for Wilson Peck, and Michael Freeman, as the "standard" by which coins from Great Britain are identified, and classified.

Best wishes to you, and also to PCGS.

Bob C.

[Chris Perkins 228]

DustyBoy, you keep trying to post, but the result is just 2 or 3 copies (quotes) of other peoples post, with no new reply. I have deleted 3 so far. Is there a problem?

[Guest MRCOINSJR]

Hi,

Welcome Dustyboy, you seem to be acting fairly - and caught in the middle of a 'dispute' between PCGS and some opinionated posters (like me) here.

I won't be taking you up on your offer to buy the item, $3,500 for an $80 coin. In the hope that I would be able to recover the difference from PCGS.

You seem to say that PCGS are experts in the attribution of British Farthings. I do have a lot of time for Ron Guth (still) but is he an expert here? Your coin is not the Peck or Freeman mule (which I think Ron acknowledges). PCGS are trying to add an extra type to the TB/BB mule. Your eBay listing quotes prices realised for accepted mules, yours is a different type.

The true mule is possibly the rarest bronze farthing. If we add in toothed revs that have a few detached teeth - it is very common.

I give a quote from Colin Cooke's list 48 - on this list he also sells M.J. Freeman's GVF Mule for £300.

"A so-called 1860 Mule Farthing was sold on an eBay auction in January 2004, in around VF (with dark patches) for £313.03. Only trouble was that it was NOT a mule but an ordinary TB both sides! Moral, take care! If in doubt, check them out, before you buy."

As I have said before, I sold Colin an 1860 mule - when I upgraded mine. I have discussed this at length with Colin - pity he is no longer here.

As far as I know no one on this forum has any reason to 'hinder' the sale of this coin. Some collectors - like myself - are willing to give their EXPERT opinions, especially on such a rare coin.

Good luck!

Teg

[Guest MRCOINSJR]

DustyBoy, you keep trying to post, but the result is just 2 or 3 copies (quotes) of other peoples post, with no new reply. I have deleted 3 so far. Is there a problem?

Hi Chris...thankyou for asking if Dustyboy (my father) needed any help..its much appreciated..i was able to walk him thru adding a post over the phone..Thanx you much..

MrCoinsJr.

[Dustyboy 0]

WELCOME

Till next time.

Hi Josie,

Thank you for your reply.

Sorry that it has taken me so long to reply to your WELCOME, but I was having problems sending.

Thanks again,

Dustyboy

[Chris Perkins 228]

Hi Chris...thankyou for asking if Dustyboy (my father) needed any help..its much appreciated..i was able to walk him thru adding a post over the phone..Thanx you much..

MrCoinsJr.

I wish my dad was clever enough to post in a forum at all! I'm sure he'd also be able to take part in here if he wasn't clueless, and also still on dial up!

[josie 8]

Welcome

MRCOINJR

Goodhealth to all of your family.