Proof 1730 Farthing

[Teg 0]

Hi,

A few years ago I visited Colin Cooke and bought a 1730 Copper Proof farthing.

Amazingly he had five to choose from, less than ten are known.

I bought the one in the best condition / strike (all were UNC).

Colin was surprised, he would have gone for the one with the 'best'

pedigree.

How much importance would you attach to a pedigree?

Teg

[Colin G. 147]

Hi,

A few years ago I visited Colin Cooke and bought a 1730 Copper Proof farthing.

Amazingly he had five to choose from, less than ten are known.

I bought the one in the best condition / strike (all were UNC).

Colin was surprised, he would have gone for the one with the 'best'

pedigree.

How much importance would you attach to a pedigree?

Teg

Teg,

I am with you, I have never really been attracted by the pedigree side of things, buy the coin not the owner thats what I say!!! I know it may add a certain amount of fascination, but given the choice you had, I would have gone the same way

All I have got to do now is convince my wife to let me buy one!!

[Rob 3,152]

Hi,

A few years ago I visited Colin Cooke and bought a 1730 Copper Proof farthing.

Amazingly he had five to choose from, less than ten are known.

I bought the one in the best condition / strike (all were UNC).

Colin was surprised, he would have gone for the one with the 'best'

pedigree.

How much importance would you attach to a pedigree?

Teg

Quite a lot because the famous collections are only so as a result of containing the best available pieces typically. It is no coincidence that the same names crop up time and time again. Not necessarily in monetary terms, although it usually applies, what is worth more? A not particularly rare piece in good grade with no known history or a similar piece that has been in the Trattle, Cuff, Bergne, Montagu, Murdoch or Lockett etc cabinets. Many collectors say they like to hold history in their hands. A good provenance allows you appreciate that history better.

[Colin G. 147]

Rob,

I can appreciate where you are coming from on this, but in my opinion I am a collector of coins and my aim is to obtain better quality examples rather than a coin that has numismatical history attached to it. I genuinely could not see myself selecting a farthing even with Freeman, Peck, Cooke pedigree over a better quality example. I guess that is just my individual approach, I am always more amazed that a coin has survived in "grannies" drawer for 80 years than a coin cabinet.

I guess thats what makes us all individual otherwise we would all be chasing the same coin!!

[Rob 3,152]

Rob,

I can appreciate where you are coming from on this, but in my opinion I am a collector of coins and my aim is to obtain better quality examples rather than a coin that has numismatical history attached to it. I genuinely could not see myself selecting a farthing even with Freeman, Peck, Cooke pedigree over a better quality example. I guess that is just my individual approach, I am always more amazed that a coin has survived in "grannies" drawer for 80 years than a coin cabinet.

I guess thats what makes us all individual otherwise we would all be chasing the same coin!!

The best known almost invariably has a good provenance as that is why it is known as the best having been seen in various sales down the years. It is very rare for the best known example to suddenly appear from nowhere. It will also typically command a good premium and crucially only one person can own it at any one time. So the discussion seems to be centred around not quite there pieces which the majority of collectors have to fight over. On the assumption that either of the coins in question is considered good enough for inclusion in the collection and if there is little to choose between them, then the additional history would win every time. If there is a lot of difference in grade, then you would obviously go for the better one, but nearly there coins are usually a choice between one defect and another. In the case which started this thread, you would expect a 1730 proof farthing to be at or near top grade, and if not you would wait until you found a good one unless you knew there was none better. I agree with both of you that a dire coin with a good provenance is irrelevant if much better examples exist.

Edited October 18, 2007 by Rob

[Teg 0]

Good points Rob.

I do like a coin with a pedigree, but would prefer even a marginally better

coin with none.

The system has a lot of problems.

Many dealers don't give a history -

they are afraid you will find out how much they paid for the coin and

hence their profit margin. I have bought a couple of farthings recently

that I know are ex Colin Cooke - without it being stated. So none of his

notes!

Farthings are generally low value, and small. Until recently most were not

photographed at auction. It is almost impossible to prove that the coin

you have was the one from that sale. Coins do get swapped.

Many coins have no tickets, you only have a dealers word that the coin

is say 'ex Peck'.

Peck is a good example, in his book he stated next to the BMC type where the coin

was from. So it's possible to view the actual coin that he saw - when he decided

what a particular variety was.

The real traceability (for farthings) probably starts now - with a photographic audit trial.

Rob your list of famous collections has set me thinking. I might well try and collect at

least one farthing from each of the major farthing collections. Should be fun.

Teg

[Rob 3,152]

Coin tickets are important evidence as are auction catalogues because even when not illustrated, the better pieces often have the source noted so that you can generate a trail which hopefully arrives at an illustration somewhere along the line. I have acquired quite a few pieces with tickets which frequently have info regarding previous owners and their lot numbers. A lot of collectors tickets were reproduced in the BNJ article by Eaglen, Mitchell and Pagan in 2001 for the hammered series and although there has not been a similar article for milled collectors, many collected both series so it should be possible to link the handwriting.

I don't know if you bought any of the farthings at the last Baldwin sale, but the Soho pattern halfpennies that were ex Deane all had tickets and gave Briggs lot numbers. As M A Briggs copper collection in 1943 only had 200 lots, the Briggs numbers on the back of the tickets which started at 252 almost certainly refer to Arthur Briggs (Sotheby 22/3/1893) - hopefully someone will come up with a sale catalogue to confirm this. This is part of the fun of researching provenances as there is a chance that the source of these coins will also be noted in the catalogue and just possibly the buyer will be someone other than Baldwin, Spink or some other dealer.

A Briggs catalogue anyone?

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

Although I feel provenance in important, it does not play a vital role in acquisitions....

I have the Colin Adams F-21 (acquired via Laurie Bamford) No ticket, but informed as such by Laurie.

I acquired 2 coins from the Laurie Bamford sale as the original purchaser..... The images from the sale document the coins

I have the Freeman F-76 WITH his ticket.

I HAD (and sold) the Freeman F-27 WITH his ticket (and that was a selling point) [i have a better exaple now].

I have the Colin Cooke F-530 (mounted in an album) but I have his envelope mounted in the back for future use/reference when needed.

I have a few coins from the Dr Nicholson collection (mounted in an album), but I have the envelopes mounted in the back for future use/reference when needed.

I do NOT go out of my way FOR provenence, but if it can be documented or noted, I try to preserve the information...

Edited October 19, 2007 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[Rob 3,152]

This is also where slabbing becomes a real pain because there is no facility for accompanying tickets which presumably are binned and so provenances are dependent on the grading service attribution - not a good thing when they frequently can't even get the denomination or variety right.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

This is also where slabbing becomes a real pain because there is no facility for accompanying tickets which presumably are binned and so provenances are dependent on the grading service attribution - not a good thing when they frequently can't even get the denomination or variety right.

ain't it the truth......... Amen...