Victorian 1847 Penny - No dots after Britanniar

[Stechlin 0]

Hi!

I'm a German collector of British One Penny coins. About 3 years ago I started as a date runner for Pennies from 1797 to 1967, but now I'm mostly interested in the Victorian Pennies including all the varieties. I have just checked one of my two 1847 pennies - at the first look a common near colon after DEF variety -, but then I recognized, that there are no dots behind Britanniar on the reverse. I couldn`t find this variety (if is is one) in my catalogues (at first of course I had a look at the catalogue of Chris -2007-), but I failed. The coin is in a quite good condition, so I can`t believe, the dots have vanished by use. - So, I would like to ask the experts in this forum, if somebody has any idea to that coin.

Great forum, Chris!

Holger

P.S. I' ve tried to post two small pictures, but I'm not sure, it it had worked

[RLC35 288]

Stechlin,

Peck 1492 is the DEF close colon, and P1493 is the DEF far colon. I have one of each. The Near (close) colon, (P1492) does not have the colon after Britanniar, but the far colon, (P1493) does have the colon after britanniar.

Peck lists the near and far colon after DEF, but does not mention the presence or absence of a colon after Britanniar. Obviously both of the latter are unlisted varieties.

Bob C.

[Red Riley 2]

Hi!

I'm a German collector of British One Penny coins. About 3 years ago I started as a date runner for Pennies from 1797 to 1967, but now I'm mostly interested in the Victorian Pennies including all the varieties. I have just checked one of my two 1847 pennies - at the first look a common near colon after DEF variety -, but then I recognized, that there are no dots behind Britanniar on the reverse. I couldn`t find this variety (if is is one) in my catalogues (at first of course I had a look at the catalogue of Chris -2007-), but I failed. The coin is in a quite good condition, so I can`t believe, the dots have vanished by use. - So, I would like to ask the experts in this forum, if somebody has any idea to that coin.

Great forum, Chris!

Holger

P.S. I' ve tried to post two small pictures, but I'm not sure, it it had worked

Hi Holger, I've checked my 1847 (a close colon) and have discovered that the colon after Britanniar is barely visible to the naked eye. This in fact is the only year in my collection where this anomaly occurs, but I think that if you look very carefully at your photograph, there is just the vestige of the upper dot. Therefore, I wouldn't necessarily agree that the coin you have posted is a variety, but merely a feature of all 1847 close dots caused by localised wear on the die.

[RLC35 288]

Red,

Michael Gouby has determined that a reverse 3 variety exists with the faint colons that you reference.

http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp1847CD.htm

Above is the reference to a pic of that coin.

Bob C.

[Stechlin 0]

Hi Bob and Hi Red Riley,

thank you very much for your quick and high interesting answers.

Well: Peck says, that all varieties he is listing from Number 1479 downwards have all for colons unless otherwise stated. So Bob is obviously right, a non colon behind Britanniar variety is not listed there. But the reply of Red Riley brought me in doubt, if there are really no colons, so I´m posting now two other pictures, made under the microscope (so you can see, my equipment is much better than my coin collection, haha). The first one concerns the coin, we are talking about. I´m still not sure about the existence of dots, but Red Riley might be right. The other picture is made from my second 1847 penny. This a a far colon after DEF variety in only fine condition all in all. But the dots behind Britanniar are truely good visible, aren`t they?

So, thanks once again and: What do you think now?

Holger

[Chris Perkins 228]

Whereabouts in Germany are you Holger?

[RLC35 288]

Since I looked at your 1847 copy under higher magnification, I did the same thing to my, near colon 1847, and if you have the lighting just right, you can see a very faint colon after Britanniar. This is not visible otherwise.

This is the same thing Michael Goby shows with his 1847.

The far colon 1847 that I have, has a very bold colon after britanniar, so I didn't include a pic of it.

Bob C.

[Stechlin 0]

Whereabouts in Germany are you Holger?

Hi, Chris

Thank you for your kind question. I was born in Mainz near Frankfurt, but now live in Weimar in Eastern Germany. I´m sure you are interested, how I came to your website. It was Gary Brettman, who gave me the hint, you know him. In the early 70s I spent every summer holiday in England - a teenager at that time - and I started to collect a few pennies. It was just after the decimalisation and I did'nt understand the old currency at all, but a few of these pennies were fascinating old. About three years ago I started again collecting pennies, and Gary answered patiently about 1000 questions - a few less perhaps - in a similiar perfect manner as Bob and Red Riley did in my first forum-question.

Anyway, I'm glad Gary gave me the hint to your website, I bought your great catalogue last year and I'm working with it as a standard, although I own the Spink catalogue and the Peck (and others too). - I'm afraid, I have answered more questions than you have asked, haha. But German penny-collectors are as scarce as an 1849 penny (in fact even scarcer than a 1933 penny, I'm afraid), so it might have been of interest. Be sure, you will meet me more often in your forum and as regular buyer of your catalogue.

See you soon

Holger

[Stechlin 0]

Since I looked at your 1847 copy under higher magnification, I did the same thing to my, near colon 1847, and if you have the lighting just right, you can see a very faint colon after Britanniar. This is not visible otherwise.

This is the same thing Michael Goby shows with his 1847.

The far colon 1847 that I have, has a very bold colon after britanniar, so I didn't include a pic of it.

Bob C.

I think, you are right. As you have a far colon 1847 penny with a similar bold colon after britanniar as I have, the faint dots seem to be a "problem", that concerns only the near colon variety of that date. Perhaps my coin is one, that has been strucked comparatively late with the same die, so the dots are even weaker as in the first strucks. And although my coin is in a quite good condition, it was more used than yours. Thanks!

Holger

[Chris Perkins 228]

I'm just south of Chemnitz, not very far from you. I don't have many pennies at the moment though.

[Stechlin 0]

I'm just south of Chemnitz, not very far from you. I don't have many pennies at the moment though.

Hi Chris

Nice to hear you're living next door. I can't remember Gary mentioned that. Don't worry about your Penny-offers, I'm patient.

S.y.s.

Holger

[Gary 7]

Hi Holger, yes, I did mention that Chris is based in germany but it was a long time ago, you probably forgot All the best, Gary

By the way, good photos .....