is it or isn't it '1909 penny'

[kel 0]

Hi all

Firstly I am not a collector nor do I buy to sell.

I have posted this on another site with little responce

As a child I played with my grans coin collection and they were always promised to me. When she died in 2000 I got given the coins: well about 50% of them. All of the copper pennys, h/pennys and farthings were gone plus all the 'lettered' coins and the was no coins between 1950 and 1960 inc. I put the in a bag in the loft and forgot about them. Economics and a discussion about old coins got me to dig out the bag of coins and spent some hours explorring poss values.

I have 2 1909 penny's and I think they are different! Please remember I am untrained. I think:

That the sea is more detailed

That the 9's connect back at different points

That the fonts are slightly different

Unfortuately there is alot of wear under the 1 so I can not directly tell if it is directly over a 'spot' although by judging against the other it looks like it may. Also there is a slight gap (magnifying glass job) to the bottom left of the 1 proportionally different to the other. I have put it up against the example of a F169 penny and I think they are the same? but again I have no experience. I think it needs more checks against other 1909 pennys

Please advise if only to tell me to not be so silly

Thanks

Kel

to the left as you look is my ordenary penny to the right what I am hoping is the F169 penny

[kel 0]

I have been playing with my computer

where it is marked is where I think it is different

[Gary D 76]

It's only my opinion but I think the one on the right is so worn we will never know. Can you see any teeth around the N of ONE that is the other pointer.

[kel 0]

no! but there is a slight gap to the left of the bottom of the 1 which proportionally is different to the other 1909 penny (it only shows up with a magnifying glass)

[kel 0]

[Red Riley 2]

As you have discovered, there are two varieties of 1909 penny, and one of them is relatively valuable, the rare one having the following attributes:

1) The '1' points directly to a tooth in the border;

2) The first upright of 'N' points to a gap in the border;

3) The waves in the sea are sharper.

On the less worn of the two, the '1' points to a gap, so that excludes that one. The other coin is so worn that individual teeth have all but been obliterated and (3) is ultimately subjective so as Gary D implied, you may have found a rarity, but no-one will ever know, the coin is just too worn.

Although they are worth little more than their metal content, anything that is 99 years old deserves a little respect. If you have any kids, give the coins to them, they may love the age thing (especially as they are 100 years old next year). If not, hey maybe one day...

[kel 0]

so it doesn't matter if I clean it - thought of trying the bang test

[kel 0]

which N, which side or all of them - the first upright on the heads side points to a tooth (it is much clearer)

[kel 0]

I have been looking through the magnifying glass with the light comming from different direction. You can make out the inside edges of the teeth as the light hits and reflects off the curves. I think the number one is in line with a tooth.

I am off to college tomorrow to see if I can use their microsope. By trade (different life many years ago) i was a metalogist so it is begging time to see if they will let me. It as been awhile since I did this type of drawing but here goes, because many photos later, no photos to speak of, wrong camera. Had to learn how to take photos like this as part of my training but the camera was 20 times bigger:)

Need guidance with regards to the N i.e. which N. The the first upright in N, in ONE using the reflective light is in line, both N's on the heads side are in line, the N's in penny are debateable and indistingishable for now?

[Chris Perkins 228]

What it all boils down to (no matter what your opinion is) is if you can persuade someone to share your view and pay more than scrap metal value for the coin! It's interesting if you can prove it, but it's a very worn coin.....Very difficult to sell, collector's are so fussy.

If you want to keep it, then fine if you are 100% what type it is!

[kel 0]

Yes I understand that, it is all about demand.

If it is proven to be one of these coins, I am sure that because of the condition no collector would want one of less than 10 in the world, so it will be nice for my bragging rights with friends and family.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

Just in case it helps, here are some images of an 1909 F-169 for you to use for comparison.....

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

Both Dates

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

Here's another example of what is probably an EXTREMELY RARE coin that is in EXTREMELY POOR condition, so much that the variety can be debated ad nauseum.....

1862 die letter A to the RIGHT (NOT Left) of the Lighthouse.....

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

Close-Up

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

Genuine Specimen...

[Chris Perkins 228]

Yes I understand that, it is all about demand.

If it is proven to be one of these coins, I am sure that because of the condition no collector would want one of less than 10 in the world, so it will be nice for my bragging rights with friends and family.

In Freeman it's R9 which means that there are an estimated 7000 to 12000 in existence (as a very rough guide).

[kel 0]

Chris I am going on what it says on the internet. I am not a collector just an owner of something that I will sell if it is worth it, who/what is freeman

Update

I have had it under a brunell microscope and I can confirm the following

The 9's are the same

There is more detail on the sea and what I assume are rocks both to the left and the right

that there are strong indications that the 1 is over a tooth as per my previous post

The college was as helpful as they could, beens as they haven't run metalergy for ten years and that they have sold off most of their stuff.

Not really sure of my next step because I would love to know if it is or not (regardless of, if all it's worth is scrap value)

Kel

PS were as the N come from because the N's in the 1909 F169 picture donot align?

[Chris Perkins 228]

Freeman is the author of the book where the F169 number comes from. Normally only collectors with the book quote Freeman numbers so I assumed you had one!

Wherever the info was about it being one of only 10 is not correct.

The info about the N's I don't think applies when trying to tell the difference between F169 and the F168. The only differences are the reverses, common is type D and the F169 has type E. The differences are pretty small though (even on as new coins). The waves are more finely cut (impossible to tell after wear), as you know the 1 is right above a tooth and the exergue (the space containing the date) is slightly smaller, which is also impossible to tell when the edge has started melting into the coin.

[kel 0]

I got the information from www.coinsgb.com

As I said in my 1st post I am not a collector nor do I buy and sell

Here is the collection of penny's (I also have a 1826, what I think is a farthing and a 100 or so forign coins, some H/p's and some florins(mostly after 1957) 3d's and 6d's and some early 10p's (1968/9 & early 70's))

Can you see anything I should look at

Kel

[Chris Perkins 228]

An average circulated low tide 1895 penny would be worth about a fiver. These are also often called 'trident to 'P' 2 millimetres. Pretty rare even in worn conditions and usually easy to tell.

Coinsgb is our very own Hus, who's a member here. The 9 in R9 doesn't mean there are 9 known. Perhaps that's where the confusion comes.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

The 9 in R9 doesn't mean there are 9 known. Perhaps that's where the confusion comes.

R9 (in Freeman's scale) is 7001 to 12000 ESTIMATED.....

In the case of the F-169 and the F-164A (an R5, estimated 50001 to 100000), I believe that there are LESS than a dozen KNOWN of each, possibly as few as 8-10, although there has NOT been a reliable census mage on these in many years if at all, and the only census referred to repeatedly is from John Jerrams book on Victorian pennies and their varieties from 1860 to 1865, which sadly, with new discoveries, is out of date.....

[Chris Perkins 228]

I wonder how many Gouby has seen of each. I'll ask him next time I see him.

(Michael Gouby is a coin dealer in London who specialises in pennies and has written or contributed to a number of books on the subject. Michael Freeman is sort of semi-retired now and doesn't do any research anymore).

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

I wonder how many Gouby has seen of each. I'll ask him next time I see him.

(Michael Gouby is a coin dealer in London who specialises in pennies and has written or contributed to a number of books on the subject. Michael Freeman is sort of semi-retired now and doesn't do any research anymore).

He would be your best source of CURRENT information.... In fact, if I remember correctly, he contributed the current pricing data in the 2006 edition of Freeman's book......

On his website, he remarks that approximately 6 specimens are known of the F-169 and no mention of quantity known of the F-164A

Edited July 4, 2008 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[Hussulo 6]

Hi Kel,

I think Chris, Red Riley and BCC have covered all the points.

I also agree, unfortunately due to the amount of wear it would be hard to prove that it is, or isn't a F169. I must make it known that I don't collect varieties. I am adding them to the site when time permits and when people are generous enough to donate pictures of varieties to the site. I was also fortunate in getting permission from Michael Freeman to use his F numbers etc. on the site which is helpful for people collecting Bronze coinage. I have a long way to go yet in adding more varieties to the site and if you are keen to collect Bronze coin varieties then I would definitely recommend Mr Freeman's book:

<a href="http://www.abccoinsandtokens.com/Book.UK.0002.html" target="_blank">http://www.abccoinsandtokens.com/Book.UK.0002.html</a>

As Chris stated the level of rarity is an educated estimate, but in the case of F169, I was told by the person donating the pictures (whom wishes to remain anonymous) and as far as I can ascertain there are less than 10 of this variety known, however there may be more awaiting discovery or undeclared.

If anyone has a good indication as to the number known in existence, it would be a specialist like Mr Gouby. If Chris does get a chance to speak with him, it would be interesting to hear his verdict.

Regards,

Hus

Edited July 4, 2008 by Hussulo