Comparitive rarity of British silver milled coins.

[freewheels 2]

Hi,

I was hoping to start an exchange about some rare British coins.

I have never seen a 1726 1/2 crown or a 1798 Shilling offered for sale, does anyone in the forum own either of these?

How rare do you think they are comparted to a 1667/4 1/2 crown, a 1697 Crown or a 1703 plain 1/2 crown all of which I have seen offered for sale?

For that matter how would they compare to an 1841 1/2 crown.

Also why are George 1st crowns seemingly more available than his 1/2 crowns?

I am hoping to start a debate about these rarities and any others that forum members might care to mention.

in the interests of full disclosureI must admit that I am only a "tirekicker" when it comes to rare expensive coins although I am looking for a mid grade George 1 halfcrown.

I'm looking forward to some interesting replies,

freewheels

[Rob 3,152]

Hi,

I was hoping to start an exchange about some rare British coins.

I have never seen a 1726 1/2 crown or a 1798 Shilling offered for sale, does anyone in the forum own either of these?

How rare do you think they are comparted to a 1667/4 1/2 crown, a 1697 Crown or a 1703 plain 1/2 crown all of which I have seen offered for sale?

For that matter how would they compare to an 1841 1/2 crown.

Also why are George 1st crowns seemingly more available than his 1/2 crowns?

I am hoping to start a debate about these rarities and any others that forum members might care to mention.

in the interests of full disclosureI must admit that I am only a "tirekicker" when it comes to rare expensive coins although I am looking for a mid grade George 1 halfcrown.

I'm looking forward to some interesting replies,

freewheels

Of the coins you list, all are rare with the 1841 being the commonest. The rarest of the list is clearly the 1667/4 of which there are 3 known examples. There was one listed in the Spink sale of March 2005 which was with other duplicates from the Adams collection prior to his whole collection being sold in the December of that year and which contained a second, slightly better example. Having been offered the duplicate prior to auction, I have to confess that neither was particularly appealing given their low grade! There is one particularly good example of the 1726 which Spink sold around 10 or 12 years(?) ago. This is way above the rest and particularly choice. All of the above crop up from time to time, you just have to keep your eyes open.

Relative rarities will usually reflect the requirements for coinage at the time. That is why no halfpennies were struck during Anne's reign for example following the huge issues of William III.

[Gary D 76]

It is my belief that the whole subject of coin rarity is too often attached to mintage figures which in themselves are totally misleading. Often a minage figure is the number of coins released to circulation in a given year, not necessarily baring the date of that year.

As an example, quoting peck, 1946 brass 3d. "The scarcity of those dated 1946 is due to the fact that about seven-eighths of the pieces struck during that year were coined from dies of the previous year"

Whilst still in circulation everyone knew they were scarce so everytime one turned up it was put away. The same happened to the 1902 low-tide 19912H, 1918H etc... I bet you can find dozens of each on ebay at any time, it's some of the more plentiful years that are getting harder to find as nobody bothered to save them from circulation.

[Red Riley 2]

It is my belief that the whole subject of coin rarity is too often attached to mintage figures which in themselves are totally misleading. Often a minage figure is the number of coins released to circulation in a given year, not necessarily baring the date of that year.

As an example, quoting peck, 1946 brass 3d. "The scarcity of those dated 1946 is due to the fact that about seven-eighths of the pieces struck during that year were coined from dies of the previous year"

Whilst still in circulation everyone knew they were scarce so everytime one turned up it was put away. The same happened to the 1902 low-tide 19912H, 1918H etc... I bet you can find dozens of each on ebay at any time, it's some of the more plentiful years that are getting harder to find as nobody bothered to save them from circulation.

Taking this a little bit further, during the late 60s, very early 70s I went through literally tens of thousands of pennies, and whilst 18 and 19Hs turned up from time to time, I never saw a KN. Looking through mintage figures, the total number of pennies theoretically in circulation at the time would have been something like 3,000,000,000 (3 billion U.S.); the total number of Birmingham pennies minted in 1918-19 was just short of 9 million. I have never seen a breakdown of production between Heaton's and King's Norton, but if we assume that as few as one and a half million a year were KN mintmarked (it would hardly have been worth issuing a contract for anything less) then one coin in every 1,000 would have been a KN.

Considering that I checked about a thousand a week for a period of 3 years, the only conclusion that I can draw is that by that stage all the KNs had been spirited out of circulation. By extension therefore they are still out there somewhere!

Two conclusions can be drawn from this;

1) The activities of collectors can themselves have a massive impact on the actual rarity of coins; and

2) Hardly makes them rare does it?

[RLC35 288]

Gary,

I verified your statement on the mintage of the 1946 3d (from Peck), and it is correct! Does this mean that the actual mintage of 3d's dated 1946 is only 77,591 total? The quantity shown in most references is 620,734, and the above mintage firgure is 1/8th of that. Peck states that the 1946 has a "R" (rare) designation.

If the mintage of 77,591 is correct, I am in great shape...I have two (2) rolls of them that I have had for a long time!

Regards,

Bob C.

[Chris Perkins 228]

What uncirculated rolls?

I warn in CCGB that the mintage figures are per annum and not for a particular indicated date.

[Gary D 76]

Gary,

I verified your statement on the mintage of the 1946 3d (from Peck), and it is correct! Does this mean that the actual mintage of 3d's dated 1946 is only 77,591 total? The quantity shown in most references is 620,734, and the above mintage firgure is 1/8th of that. Peck states that the 1946 has a "R" (rare) designation.

If the mintage of 77,591 is correct, I am in great shape...I have two (2) rolls of them that I have had for a long time!

Regards,

Bob C.

Yes and no. There was no mintage the next year 1947 but how many 1946 were there minted in 1947.....

[RLC35 288]

I Thought it was too good to be true!

Bob C.

[Red Riley 2]

Yes and no. There was no mintage the next year 1947 but how many 1946 were there minted in 1947.....

Probably none, surely most issued in 1946 would have been dated 1945. As there were none issued at all in 1947, this would not add to the 1946 total. The reason for the disparity is that there is a time lag between minting coins and releasing them for circulation. Hence most threepences issued in 1946 would not only have been dated 1945 but would have been made in that year.

[freewheels 2]

It is my belief that the whole subject of coin rarity is too often attached to mintage figures which in themselves are totally misleading. Often a minage figure is the number of coins released to circulation in a given year, not necessarily baring the date of that year.

As an example, quoting peck, 1946 brass 3d. "The scarcity of those dated 1946 is due to the fact that about seven-eighths of the pieces struck during that year were coined from dies of the previous year"

Whilst still in circulation everyone knew they were scarce so everytime one turned up it was put away. The same happened to the 1902 low-tide 19912H, 1918H etc... I bet you can find dozens of each on ebay at any time, it's some of the more plentiful years that are getting harder to find as nobody bothered to save them from circulation.

This hypothesis applies primarily to lower denomination coins perhaps (although maybe the 1926 ME penny was an undetected scarcity when issued)?

Presumably there aren't unknown/undiscovered hordes of high grade 1/2 crowns from the rare dates of the 1840's or 1903, 04, 05 or 08, for this reason?

Did this apply at all to 17th and 18th century issues? Maybe SSC and Lima issues?

I'm sure that this question has been asked before, but why doesn't Chris Perkins work on a publication of 17th and 18th Century issues to complement his other fine work?

[Red Riley 2]

(although maybe the 1926 ME penny was an undetected scarcity when issued)?

I would not have thought that the ME penny went undetected for long. However, a higher degree of expertise would have been required in identifying this particular variety as compared to the simple process of merely clocking a date or a mintmark on such as KN pennies and 1946 or 1949 threepences. Hence the degree of 'wastage' (i.e. coins melted down) may have been greater in the '26ME. I suspect this probably holds good for other more subtle rarities.

[Chris Perkins 228]

Yes I agree. Low grade 1946 and 1949 3d's are pretty common, as are 1952 sixpences. Low grade H pennies are incredibly common, more so than the KN's. 1926 ME pennies and even 1902 low tide pennies are much harder to find, but not impossible especially in lower grades. All are pretty damned rare in high grades!

[PhilipC 0]

Hi,

I was hoping to start an exchange about some rare British coins.

I have never seen a 1726 1/2 crown or a 1798 Shilling offered for sale, does anyone in the forum own either of these?

How rare do you think they are comparted to a 1667/4 1/2 crown, a 1697 Crown or a 1703 plain 1/2 crown all of which I have seen offered for sale?

For that matter how would they compare to an 1841 1/2 crown.

Also why are George 1st crowns seemingly more available than his 1/2 crowns?

I am hoping to start a debate about these rarities and any others that forum members might care to mention.

in the interests of full disclosureI must admit that I am only a "tirekicker" when it comes to rare expensive coins although I am looking for a mid grade George 1 halfcrown.

I'm looking forward to some interesting replies,

freewheels

Of the coins you list, all are rare with the 1841 being the commonest. The rarest of the list is clearly the 1667/4 of which there are 3 known examples. There was one listed in the Spink sale of March 2005 which was with other duplicates from the Adams collection prior to his whole collection being sold in the December of that year and which contained a second, slightly better example. Having been offered the duplicate prior to auction, I have to confess that neither was particularly appealing given their low grade! There is one particularly good example of the 1726 which Spink sold around 10 or 12 years(?) ago. This is way above the rest and particularly choice. All of the above crop up from time to time, you just have to keep your eyes open.

Relative rarities will usually reflect the requirements for coinage at the time. That is why no halfpennies were struck during Anne's reign for example following the huge issues of William III.

Hi, I have all these except the 1798 shilling (the only one I ever saw for sale was offered to me for £5000).

The 1667 halfcrown I bought from Spink many years ago - I thought there were 4 known.

1726 halfcrown I have only ever seen two, mine is in F

The 1697 crown is pretty rare but the occasionally turn up.

Now the 1674 crown is the rarest of the lot in my opinion - I think there is only 1 known (and I know who owns it - grrrr)

What about the 1666 shilling without elephant (2 types) or the 1669 shilling? I have never seen the 1669 offered for sale.

Philip

[Rob 3,152]

Hi, I have all these except the 1798 shilling (the only one I ever saw for sale was offered to me for £5000).

The 1667 halfcrown I bought from Spink many years ago - I thought there were 4 known.

1726 halfcrown I have only ever seen two, mine is in F

The 1697 crown is pretty rare but the occasionally turn up.

Now the 1674 crown is the rarest of the lot in my opinion - I think there is only 1 known (and I know who owns it - grrrr)

What about the 1666 shilling without elephant (2 types) or the 1669 shilling? I have never seen the 1669 offered for sale.

Philip

I have the 1667/4s listed as Adams (1) which was in the sale, ex Lingford, Pearce and Hunt (fair to fine). Adams (2) sold at Spink the previous March which was ex Bonhams 5/6/1997 lot 77 (overgraded in that sale as fine) and the 3rd was in the Circular Sept.93 no.6197 (poor) at £850 where stated to be the second known at the time (presumably yours). Clearly this would make the Bonhams example the 3rd known as people were already aware of the Lingford and Pearce collections. Any details for the fourth would be welcome.

Off the top of my head, Harry Manville had a 1669 1/- which was lot 628 in his sale, Spink 140 16/11/1999. Infuriatingly, the info on the 1666's isn't immediately to hand. Must tidy up!!

[freewheels 2]

Hi, I have all these except the 1798 shilling (the only one I ever saw for sale was offered to me for £5000).

The 1667 halfcrown I bought from Spink many years ago - I thought there were 4 known.

1726 halfcrown I have only ever seen two, mine is in F

The 1697 crown is pretty rare but the occasionally turn up.

Now the 1674 crown is the rarest of the lot in my opinion - I think there is only 1 known (and I know who owns it - grrrr)

What about the 1666 shilling without elephant (2 types) or the 1669 shilling? I have never seen the 1669 offered for sale.

Philip

I have the 1667/4s listed as Adams (1) which was in the sale, ex Lingford, Pearce and Hunt (fair to fine). Adams (2) sold at Spink the previous March which was ex Bonhams 5/6/1997 lot 77 (overgraded in that sale as fine) and the 3rd was in the Circular Sept.93 no.6197 (poor) at £850 where stated to be the second known at the time (presumably yours). Clearly this would make the Bonhams example the 3rd known as people were already aware of the Lingford and Pearce collections. Any details for the fourth would be welcome.

Off the top of my head, Harry Manville had a 1669 1/- which was lot 628 in his sale, Spink 140 16/11/1999. Infuriatingly, the info on the 1666's isn't immediately to hand. Must tidy up!!

How do these compare to 1937 Edward 8th brass 3ds in price and (lack of) availability?

[Rob 3,152]

Hi, I have all these except the 1798 shilling (the only one I ever saw for sale was offered to me for £5000).

The 1667 halfcrown I bought from Spink many years ago - I thought there were 4 known.

1726 halfcrown I have only ever seen two, mine is in F

The 1697 crown is pretty rare but the occasionally turn up.

Now the 1674 crown is the rarest of the lot in my opinion - I think there is only 1 known (and I know who owns it - grrrr)

What about the 1666 shilling without elephant (2 types) or the 1669 shilling? I have never seen the 1669 offered for sale.

Philip

I have the 1667/4s listed as Adams (1) which was in the sale, ex Lingford, Pearce and Hunt (fair to fine). Adams (2) sold at Spink the previous March which was ex Bonhams 5/6/1997 lot 77 (overgraded in that sale as fine) and the 3rd was in the Circular Sept.93 no.6197 (poor) at £850 where stated to be the second known at the time (presumably yours). Clearly this would make the Bonhams example the 3rd known as people were already aware of the Lingford and Pearce collections. Any details for the fourth would be welcome.

Off the top of my head, Harry Manville had a 1669 1/- which was lot 628 in his sale, Spink 140 16/11/1999. Infuriatingly, the info on the 1666's isn't immediately to hand. Must tidy up!!

How do these compare to 1937 Edward 8th brass 3ds in price and (lack of) availability?

The Edward VIII 3ds are more common, but the popularity of anything to do with Edward VIII means that the price for them rockets. Mark Rasmussen had one advertised for sale at £27500 in his list 7 (Winter 2004/5) and Baldwin's sale no. 48 in Sept. 2006 had one (lot 5041) estimated at £22-26K which realised £19K. i.e way over the cost of anything else discussed with the exception of the Dorrien & Magens shilling which has always been highly prized and priced accordingly. £20-22K seems to be about the going rate for an Edward VIII 3d.

[PhilipC 0]

Hi, I have all these except the 1798 shilling (the only one I ever saw for sale was offered to me for £5000).

The 1667 halfcrown I bought from Spink many years ago - I thought there were 4 known.

1726 halfcrown I have only ever seen two, mine is in F

The 1697 crown is pretty rare but the occasionally turn up.

Now the 1674 crown is the rarest of the lot in my opinion - I think there is only 1 known (and I know who owns it - grrrr)

What about the 1666 shilling without elephant (2 types) or the 1669 shilling? I have never seen the 1669 offered for sale.

Philip

I have the 1667/4s listed as Adams (1) which was in the sale, ex Lingford, Pearce and Hunt (fair to fine). Adams (2) sold at Spink the previous March which was ex Bonhams 5/6/1997 lot 77 (overgraded in that sale as fine) and the 3rd was in the Circular Sept.93 no.6197 (poor) at £850 where stated to be the second known at the time (presumably yours). Clearly this would make the Bonhams example the 3rd known as people were already aware of the Lingford and Pearce collections. Any details for the fourth would be welcome.

Off the top of my head, Harry Manville had a 1669 1/- which was lot 628 in his sale, Spink 140 16/11/1999. Infuriatingly, the info on the 1666's isn't immediately to hand. Must tidy up!!

The other 1667 I saw was on ebay about a year ago and was in Fair and somebody wanted £3K for it - don't think it sold. This MIGHT have been the Adams specimen but for some reason I thought it was a new one. Not sure if you can search ebay for all past sales of an item to check. There might of course be a 1667 in the BM.

Interestingly Stephen Fenton told me at Coinex that there are some rare shillings for sale in his (St James) auction in November, including 1681 E&C, 1683 first type and 1666 guinea head. I won't be bidding as I have these but others might be interested!

[Rob 3,152]

Hi, I have all these except the 1798 shilling (the only one I ever saw for sale was offered to me for £5000).

The 1667 halfcrown I bought from Spink many years ago - I thought there were 4 known.

1726 halfcrown I have only ever seen two, mine is in F

The 1697 crown is pretty rare but the occasionally turn up.

Now the 1674 crown is the rarest of the lot in my opinion - I think there is only 1 known (and I know who owns it - grrrr)

What about the 1666 shilling without elephant (2 types) or the 1669 shilling? I have never seen the 1669 offered for sale.

Philip

I have the 1667/4s listed as Adams (1) which was in the sale, ex Lingford, Pearce and Hunt (fair to fine). Adams (2) sold at Spink the previous March which was ex Bonhams 5/6/1997 lot 77 (overgraded in that sale as fine) and the 3rd was in the Circular Sept.93 no.6197 (poor) at £850 where stated to be the second known at the time (presumably yours). Clearly this would make the Bonhams example the 3rd known as people were already aware of the Lingford and Pearce collections. Any details for the fourth would be welcome.

Off the top of my head, Harry Manville had a 1669 1/- which was lot 628 in his sale, Spink 140 16/11/1999. Infuriatingly, the info on the 1666's isn't immediately to hand. Must tidy up!!

The other 1667 I saw was on ebay about a year ago and was in Fair and somebody wanted £3K for it - don't think it sold. This MIGHT have been the Adams specimen but for some reason I thought it was a new one. Not sure if you can search ebay for all past sales of an item to check. There might of course be a 1667 in the BM.

Interestingly Stephen Fenton told me at Coinex that there are some rare shillings for sale in his (St James) auction in November, including 1681 E&C, 1683 first type and 1666 guinea head. I won't be bidding as I have these but others might be interested!

There was one on ebay about 2 years ago or so which was offered by john8150 or something like that priced at £2750 or £2800 initially I think. This was the Adams duplicate (ex-Bonhams) which sold for £2100ish at the sale.

[freewheels 2]

When one drops on the rarity scale a few notches say in the Scarce to R2 is there any info out there on assessing comparisons on issues that are all priced the same in Spink? Examples that interest me are George 1 and 2 halfcrowns and shillings. An example of what I mean is the 1734-6 halfcrowns. !734 seems to turn up more often than either 5 or 6 but in 2008 Spink they are all priced similarly. Similarly 1743 half crown vis a vis Limas and 1739.

If a coin is considered Scarce, how many extant examples are there?

And same for R and R2?

An alternative to Spink for 17th and 18th century that is current?

[Rob 3,152]

If a coin is considered Scarce, how many extant examples are there?

And same for R and R2?

Forget the ESC rarity numbers as most are wildly out. There are several examples of R7 where there are approaching a dozen known, conversely I can think of an R3 where I am unable to locate a single recorded example. Similarly with another rated R. I suggest you take the rarity with a pinch of salt.

[freewheels 2]

If a coin is considered Scarce, how many extant examples are there?

And same for R and R2?

Forget the ESC rarity numbers as most are wildly out. There are several examples of R7 where there are approaching a dozen known, conversely I can think of an R3 where I am unable to locate a single recorded example. Similarly with another rated R. I suggest you take the rarity with a pinch of salt.

Any chance you could give some examples?

Thanks.

[Rob 3,152]

If a coin is considered Scarce, how many extant examples are there?

And same for R and R2?

Forget the ESC rarity numbers as most are wildly out. There are several examples of R7 where there are approaching a dozen known, conversely I can think of an R3 where I am unable to locate a single recorded example. Similarly with another rated R. I suggest you take the rarity with a pinch of salt.

Any chance you could give some examples?

Thanks.

The Roman 1 1825 shilling rated as R7 or 1 or 2 known is the most glaring example of an overrated rarity. I've seen at least half a dozen of them and know of others. The 1812 Bank Token ESC975 with small letters is also rated R7 but Baldwin have one in their winter list where it is noted as the 5th specimen they have seen available. There was another sold at London Coins this year.

Regarding those where I am unable to find any recorded example, I think it would be prudent from my perspective to keep looking and obtain one if possible before divulging this information. Similarly, there are a large number of unrecorded examples where an unknown variety is known for the preceding or following year. This is obviously due to the dies being used until worn out rather than on a strict calender year basis.