New arrival, how rare are they

[Gary D 76]

This arrived a couple of days ago, fills a gap in my collection nicely. Any opinions to how rare they really are. Freemam quotes R9 2000-7000 minted but Michael Goulby quotes "appox 6 known" I suspect the true lays somewhere between the two. Perhaps I should conduct a poll. I known at least two forum members have one so I suspect 6 is a bit of an under estimation.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

I have a specimen, sold a second one (in worse condition), and know of at least one other example...

So that makes 3 of which I have firsthand knowledge.

[Gary D 76]

I have a specimen, sold a second one (in worse condition), and know of at least one other example...

So that makes 3 of which I have firsthand knowledge.

I suspect Michael Goulby has 1 and the British Musium plus mine so we are up to the 6 now, must be some more out there.

Gary, i don't suppose you have a spare 1908 164A tucked away somewhere

[Chris Perkins 228]

I'm just going to make this clear for all the people looking at this and realising that they have a 1909 penny (or multiples of 1909 pennies) and then wanting to contact me thinking that all 1909 pennies are very rare! The one illustrated here is a rarer type known as F169. The vast majority of 1909 pennies are incredibly common, as are all Edward VII pennies in fact!

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

I have a specimen, sold a second one (in worse condition), and know of at least one other example...

So that makes 3 of which I have firsthand knowledge.

I suspect Michael Goulby has 1 and the British Musium plus mine so we are up to the 6 now, must be some more out there.

Gary, i don't suppose you have a spare 1908 164A tucked away somewhere

I wish...

I had a damaged specimen, which I sold when I got my current example......

[AardHawk 73]

V.R.Court carried out a survey of major penny varieties in the early 1970's when he checked 672,000 coins. Of these 1,693 were 1909 and of these 2 were Rev B, which suggests that proportionally 23,200 were minted. Court himself says that "these small levels of incidence provide very unreliable bases for calculating accurate estimated mintages. However they probably indicate that only one die of each of these particular varieties was in use, and actual mintage of each type was probably, though not necessarily, the production capacity of that die." So the actual figure could be as high as perhaps 100,000.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

V.R.Court carried out a survey of major penny varieties in the early 1970's when he checked 672,000 coins. Of these 1,693 were 1909 and of these 2 were Rev B, which suggests that proportionally 23,200 were minted. Court himself says that "these small levels of incidence provide very unreliable bases for calculating accurate estimated mintages. However they probably indicate that only one die of each of these particular varieties was in use, and actual mintage of each type was probably, though not necessarily, the production capacity of that die." So the actual figure could be as high as perhaps 100,000.

The primary question with ANY of these "rare" varieties is not how many were minted, but rather, how many survived in an identifiable condition, so as to be of desirability to a collector.......

Sometimes, the only numbers that we can base any calculations of rarity upon are the number of specimens that are known, and not estimated mintages.....

[Gary D 76]

V.R.Court carried out a survey of major penny varieties in the early 1970's when he checked 672,000 coins. Of these 1,693 were 1909 and of these 2 were Rev B, which suggests that proportionally 23,200 were minted. Court himself says that "these small levels of incidence provide very unreliable bases for calculating accurate estimated mintages. However they probably indicate that only one die of each of these particular varieties was in use, and actual mintage of each type was probably, though not necessarily, the production capacity of that die." So the actual figure could be as high as perhaps 100,000.

The primary question with ANY of these "rare" varieties is not how many were minted, but rather, how many survived in an identifiable condition, so as to be of desirability to a collector.......

Sometimes, the only numbers that we can base any calculations of rarity upon are the number of specimens that are known, and not estimated mintages.....

Not talking from personal knowledge I get the impression that this coin and perhaps the F192A were quite late discoveries, as they seem to only turn up in vary circulated condition only. Freeman 2006 quotes them both in fine only. This would allow the vast majority of them being lost/melted before they were dicovered.

[AardHawk 73]

They are not mentioned by David Seaby in the 1972 Coins Annual which was written during the mid to latter part of 1971. Courts survey was published in August 1972. So I think that more or less pinpoints the discovery date.

Does anyone have a copy of the 1970 Freeman. Peck dosn't show it in 1964.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

The F-169 (1909) IS listed in the 1970 edition of Freeman...

The F-164A (1908) is NOT listed in the 1970 edition of Freeman....

As a point of interest the 1922 F-192A is NOT listed in the 1970 edition of Freeman either....

Edited February 12, 2009 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[RLC35 288]

The F-169 (1909) Penny is listed in Freeman as Obv 2, Rev 5, and has a rarity of R9 (7,001 to 12,000 pcs.).

Bob C.

[RLC35 288]

Correction to the previous post. The reverse is Rev. E. I guess I need to get my glasses changed.

Bob C.

[Gary D 76]

The F-169 (1909) Penny is listed in Freeman as Obv 2, Rev 5, and has a rarity of R9 (7,001 to 12,000 pcs.).

Bob C.

Although Freeman doesn't specify I assume the figure quoted is for the number minted of this type. Also assuming that this type was not identified until the early 1970s, that's 60 years of circulation. I know that even back in the mid to late 60s when I started collecting from change the occassional vicky pence and more often eddie penny turned up in the change, it was probably less than one in a hundred so out of the 12000 max there can't be too may put away. So no more than a few tens of F-169 in existance is quite possible.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Gary D

[AardHawk 73]

As a point of interest the 1922 F-192A is NOT listed in the 1970 edition of Freeman either....

David Sealy in his Coin Varieties column of Jan 1970 reports that a Mr J.R.Brittin contacted him saying that he had seen an add in Exchange and Mart a few months before for "Unique coin for sale : 1922 penny, fine, which bears the reverse side design which only appeared on pennies dated from 1927. . . " Mr Brittin himself also had one of these coins.

Back to the 1909, It would be interesting to know the basis that Freeman used for his estimate. Perhaps if he reads this he'll let us know!

[declanwmagee 122]

I'm just going to make this clear for all the people looking at this and realising that they have a 1909 penny (or multiples of 1909 pennies) and then wanting to contact me thinking that all 1909 pennies are very rare! The one illustrated here is a rarer type known as F169. The vast majority of 1909 pennies are incredibly common, as are all Edward VII pennies in fact!

OK I give up - what's the difference between this one and the common ones? And before anyone says "go and buy a Freeman", I am trying - I get an email whenever one pops up on eBay but they always go out of my league!

cheers

Declan

[scott 144]

its about where the number points, the 1 to the rim dot rather then between them or something

[AardHawk 73]

"go and buy a Freeman", I am trying - I get an email whenever one pops up on eBay but they always go out of my league!

try Amazon http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_?u...p;x=17&y=23 You want the 1985 edition or later.

[DaveG38 405]

I'm just going to make this clear for all the people looking at this and realising that they have a 1909 penny (or multiples of 1909 pennies) and then wanting to contact me thinking that all 1909 pennies are very rare! The one illustrated here is a rarer type known as F169. The vast majority of 1909 pennies are incredibly common, as are all Edward VII pennies in fact!

OK I give up - what's the difference between this one and the common ones? And before anyone says "go and buy a Freeman", I am trying - I get an email whenever one pops up on eBay but they always go out of my league!

cheers

Declan

Declan,

There are two basic types for 1909 penny, one with what Freeman describes as reverse D and the other reverse E. The reverse E type is the rarer one. They are characterised as follows:

Rev D:

• The waves to the right of Britannia are coarsely cut.

• Britannia’s central trident prong points to a tooth.

• The first ‘1’ in the date points to a gap between two border teeth.

• Both legs of the ‘N’ in ‘ONE’ point to border teeth.

• The uprights of the ‘P’ and ‘E’ in ‘PENNY’ point to border teeth.

• Britannia’s fist, where it grips the trident is smaller and less spread.

Rev E:

• The waves to the right of Britannia are more finely cut.

• Britannia’s central trident prong points to a gap between two teeth.

• The border teeth are arranged so that the first ‘1’ in the date is centrally over a tooth.

• Both legs of the ‘N’ in ‘ONE’ point to gap between border teeth.

• The uprights of the ‘P’ and ‘E’ in ‘PENNY’ point between border teeth.

• Britannia’s fist, where it grips the trident is larger, and more spread out.

Less easily identified is the fact that reverse D has 167 border teeth whilst reverse E has 164 border teeth.

Hope this helps!!

DaveG38

[declanwmagee 122]

I'm just going to make this clear for all the people looking at this and realising that they have a 1909 penny (or multiples of 1909 pennies) and then wanting to contact me thinking that all 1909 pennies are very rare! The one illustrated here is a rarer type known as F169. The vast majority of 1909 pennies are incredibly common, as are all Edward VII pennies in fact!

OK I give up - what's the difference between this one and the common ones? And before anyone says "go and buy a Freeman", I am trying - I get an email whenever one pops up on eBay but they always go out of my league!

cheers

Declan

Declan,

There are two basic types for 1909 penny, one with what Freeman describes as reverse D and the other reverse E. The reverse E type is the rarer one. They are characterised as follows:

Rev D:

• The waves to the right of Britannia are coarsely cut.

• Britannia’s central trident prong points to a tooth.

• The first ‘1’ in the date points to a gap between two border teeth.

• Both legs of the ‘N’ in ‘ONE’ point to border teeth.

• The uprights of the ‘P’ and ‘E’ in ‘PENNY’ point to border teeth.

• Britannia’s fist, where it grips the trident is smaller and less spread.

Rev E:

• The waves to the right of Britannia are more finely cut.

• Britannia’s central trident prong points to a gap between two teeth.

• The border teeth are arranged so that the first ‘1’ in the date is centrally over a tooth.

• Both legs of the ‘N’ in ‘ONE’ point to gap between border teeth.

• The uprights of the ‘P’ and ‘E’ in ‘PENNY’ point between border teeth.

• Britannia’s fist, where it grips the trident is larger, and more spread out.

Less easily identified is the fact that reverse D has 167 border teeth whilst reverse E has 164 border teeth.

Hope this helps!!

DaveG38

Dave you're a star - thanks very much - top information!

all the best

Declan

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

Here is a link to Michael Gouby's page on his website with information regarding the 1909 pennies...

Link to Michael Gouby's information page on the 1909 pennies

Please ALWAYS acknowledge source material. especially on the web, as people work hard to maintain it and they deserve the credit.......