CGS "Commercialized Grading" - Who Goes For It?

[VickySilver 830]

London Coins have now posted CGS certified coins for sale on their website. I was struck by the numbers of coins now listed, but then noted that most were of a more common sort that have now been encapsulated and priced upwards in most cases rather aggressively.

Rather scarcer examples struck with the same (editorial) malady would be the 1868 florin at 1500 pounds, and the 1934 crown at 6000 pounds.

I had thought that this new grading scheme was not going anywhere and perhaps being abandoned but evidently this is not the case, at least for this firm. I am just not at all sure that the product is worth the premium and it seems inspired by the American "third party grading" (TPG) firms. BTW, I can not see how they are third party since they sell coins that they grade and this might represent a conflict.

What say you?

[Dg43 0]

London Coins have now posted CGS certified coins for sale on their website. I was struck by the numbers of coins now listed, but then noted that most were of a more common sort that have now been encapsulated and priced upwards in most cases rather aggressively.

Rather scarcer examples struck with the same (editorial) malady would be the 1868 florin at 1500 pounds, and the 1934 crown at 6000 pounds.

I had thought that this new grading scheme was not going anywhere and perhaps being abandoned but evidently this is not the case, at least for this firm. I am just not at all sure that the product is worth the premium and it seems inspired by the American "third party grading" (TPG) firms. BTW, I can not see how they are third party since they sell coins that they grade and this might represent a conflict.

What say you?

I suppose they are taking advantage of the dire economic situation by offering coins to 'investors' who are chary about the regular investment options. The idea is, anything graded higher than UNC 82 is, to quote the CGS website: "Scarce and desirable". But, as you point out with your examples - and another example is - an 1887 proof halfcrown graded 'Unc 90', for £350, when the proof FDC price in Spink 2009 is £170. So their prices seem a tad high. I can see what they are trying to do, exploit the dire grading situation, not only on ebay, but sadly amongst so-called reputable dealers, (with a few notable exceptions). And I must say, their grading seems very strict.

Whether they sell many coins is another thing, CCI's home page declares: 'Latest News: July 2008 CCI List - OUT SOON!' (my underline).

However, I had not realised that they are all part of the same group, this is rather disturbing.

[scott 144]

i dont mind slabbed coins, if its a rare piece in a good condition especially, or a general circulation coin still in a nice condition, but paying a premium for them they would have to be special, also konwing its authentic is a plus, its not anything and everything it should be stuff you as a collector feel should be slabbed, pieces i enjoy to look at i want to look at, but then you worry about handling, slabs prevent the damage.

the prices on there are just plain rediculous though, £30 for a QE2 farthing? are they mad? UNC or not thats just plain nuts

£4 for an UNC 1974 10p O.o

1903 closed 9 penny VG 10 £25? never heard of closed 9 before whats the differance?

[RLC35 288]

I think slabbed coins can provide a service for Rare Coins, that is really helpful. Once a coin is slabbed by a reputable Grading Company (NGC, etc.), it is guaranteed to be genuine. In the case of a USA 1893-S Dollar, this can be very helpful. The 1893-S Dollar is worth $11,000 in EF. The coin that is most often forged as an 1893-S coin, is the 1898-S Dollar, that is worth about $45.00 in EF. I ran across a 1898-S that had been altered to become a 1893-S, and it was an artful fraud! It took a 200 power microscope to tell that it wasn't genuine! So you can see the value of slabbing a Rare coin.

With that said, I really don't like coin slabbing...for one thing, those slabbed coins will not fit in my Dansco Supreme albums. For investment grade coins though, it might be helpful to be able to guarantee their legitimacy, when trying to market them.

Bob C.

[TomGoodheart 400]

I don't see any particular problem with slabbed coins. But to favour one coin over another simply because it is slabbed seems a bit foolish. I imagine that this sort of thing will appeal to those who don't know as much about numismatics and wish to rely on the guarantees that such companies normally provide. (Though I don't know what CGS offers in this respect). In other words, it strikes me as something for 'investors' in coins, rather than numismatists.

As for pricing, well that comes down to research I guess. People who do their homework will see that the prices are perhaps a bit high. And also that there are other firms offering slabbed coins.

It's not something that particularly appeals to me for a number of reasons. Firstly with the coins I collect, grading is somewhat subjective. One VF Charles I shilling can just have a lot more appeal than another; even though strictly they are both the same in degree of wear and tear. Toning, crispness of the strike. Whether the coin is full or clipped, central or not. That sort of thing.

Secondly I like to examine coins in my hand. However good encapsulation is, it's still difficult to get a proper idea of a coin when it's encased in plastic. And in the end, for me at least, it's almost irrelevant what someone else thinks of a coin. I still base my decision on whether I like it, whether it's a good deal in comparison to similar coins I've seen in the past and whether it adds something to my collection. Nobody else can make those decisions for me.

Edited April 9, 2009 by TomGoodheart

[scottishmoney 31]

Authentication is a nice feature, but fakes have been found in PCGS and NGC holders, read up on the Micro-O mintmarked Morgan Dollars in the USA.

Grading is one's opinion - I may or may not agree. I have bought Scottish coins in slabs and cracked them out - they were overgraded by British standards, and IMHO American grading is more generous for wear etc. I prefer to buy the coin and not the slab. Many collectors now go for high graded TPG coins, but all I think they are doing is paying more. That is what separates a purist collector from those that are more speculative, a purist collects the coin for what it is, not for what someone else's opinion of it is.

[RLC35 288]

An additional issue with slabbed coins is getting a good pic of them, while encapsulated. Almost all of the slabs have a reflection, and that makes it really hard to get a quality pic.

[scottishmoney 31]

An additional issue with slabbed coins is getting a good pic of them, while encapsulated. Almost all of the slabs have a reflection, and that makes it really hard to get a quality pic.

I have a proof 1860 SL Dollar in an NGC tomb that I cannot photograph because of the tomb. Those new NGC holders with the nibs are even worse, they show the edges all right - at the expense of the face and reverse of a coin.

[Colin G. 147]

An additional issue with slabbed coins is getting a good pic of them, while encapsulated. Almost all of the slabs have a reflection, and that makes it really hard to get a quality pic.

I have a proof 1860 SL Dollar in an NGC tomb that I cannot photograph because of the tomb. Those new NGC holders with the nibs are even worse, they show the edges all right - at the expense of the face and reverse of a coin.

I have to agree, what were they thinking with those latest holders, they are just ugly!!

As for Slabbing in General, they are here to stay, and I think there is some benefit in a UK company slabbing (I have seen some bad mistakes made by the US companies when encapsulating English coins). I have to admit CGS do grade fairly harshly, and I think you can sit fairly comfortably when purchasing one of their coins regarding grade, however the premium that they are after seems a bit high to me. As has already been stated, some of the prices appear to be exceptionanly expensive, but I suppose market forces will determine whether they are acceptable.

To some extent I can understand it on the GVI & QE2 coins, because they still have to go through the slabbing/grading process and therefore the costs must push the prices up on these coins to the £20 mark.

I can agree with Tom that I prefer to see a coin in the hand, and grading does not take into account true eye appeal, but I am sure there is no way of cretaing the perfect system in such a subjective hobby.

I have a couple of CGS coins, but they were bought in auctions at what I viewed as very good prices, but they would have been a lot higher if I had purchased them through the CGS website!!

[Coppers 58]

I'd say that collectors in the UK will be better off if encapsulated grading never takes hold. Micro-grading with its 11 grades of mint state has really warped the price structure of coins here in the US with so many collectors taking the grade assigned by PCGS or NGC as gospel and willing to pay multiples of market value for a 1 to 2 point difference in grade. I've seen too many mistakes and inconsistencies to buy into that. As he is a dealer, I'd be curious to learn what Chris' take is on this.

[Chris Perkins 228]

My opinion is the same as those already aired. Slabbing is all very well, but you're buying the coin not the slab. No doubt CGS are making good money out of it, and why not. I do find the 'best known' thing a bit odd though for common coins. If there are, for example, thousands and thousands of BU 1960s coins, how can one of them be classed as best known when it would be impossible to examine all of them. Surely hundreds and hundred of them are the same as 'best known', or better. I don't see how CGS have been going long enough to have examined the vast majority of certain coin types.

[scottishmoney 31]

Surely hundreds and hundred of them are the same as 'best known', or better. I don't see how CGS have been going long enough to have examined the vast majority of certain coin types.

I have watched bidiots bid on "best known" Churchill crowns - most people would pay people to take those ugly abominations. I wonder how many 1967 Pennies are rotting in "best known" holders?

[Chris Perkins 228]

That's the thing....just because a 1965 Crown or 1967 penny is MS68 (or I believe CGS use a 100 point system so MS95 or whatever) doesn't mean that there aren't thousands and thousands more in the same grade! Why pay over the odds for something there are thousands of? Sounds a bit like a 'Westminster Collection' business model to me.

[VickySilver 830]

Well, another issue I was trying to bring up is the slabber of these coins is also selling the coins he/they slab and that seems a conflict of interest - would there not be some temptation to add a point here or there?

[Chris Perkins 228]

Yes that certainly raises at least an eyebrow. I don't think London coins do all the grading themselves though. I think they have recruited competent third parties to do the grading. I may be wrong.

[Dg43 0]

Yes that certainly raises at least an eyebrow. I don't think London coins do all the grading themselves though. I think they have recruited competent third parties to do the grading. I may be wrong.

This is lifted from their 'About us' page

London Coins LTD is part of the London Coins (Holdings) Group LTD which also includes CCI (Certified Coins Investment LTD) the UK’s only Coin Dealership specialising entirely in third party graded UK coins and CGS (Coin Grading Services LTD) Britain’s first third party grading and encapsulation company.

[Chris Perkins 228]

Yes, I know its all them, but who actually does the grading?

[VickySilver 830]

Yes, and not immune from slabbing errors either as I had to show them that their 1875 farthing was actually an "H" (Heaton). As per above I had been under the impression that the grading service was a part of the company per se. This is somewhat similar to the USA company David Hall and PCGS where he has coins on sale certified by his own company.