1860/59 Copper Penny

[Mat 2]

Hello guys,

Did any of you attend or bid at the Warwick and Warwick auction today?

I battled it out with a phone bidder for an 1860/59 copper penny today; the phone bidder outbid me at £2400 which is about £2814 after premium and VAT.

Do any of you think the winner got a bargain there? I can’t stop thinking to myself how much it would have been worth bidding to.

Whilst that may have been a bargain, everything else seemed to be going for stupid prices.... and I mean like over double the price you can pick the same coin up from eBay in better grade. I also think all the coins are a little over graded.

These were some of the hammer prices...and they have to pay 15% + VAT on top of that too....

1887-1906 sets of half crown, florin, shilling, six pence and three pence, some EF but most fine.. And all the 1905 coins were just fine if not lower... sold for £1500.

35 crowns mostly 1887 to 1900, a couple of 1845, 1821 and a 1902 but absolutely all of them were in Fine tops and it sold for £765 which is about (£870).... on eBay that would have definitely gone for no more than £450.

some Victorian shillings, a 1821 crown and some bits and bobs all mounted or ex mount, or quilted all in F or lower, my estimate was £35, it sold for £95...

A box weighing 5kg full of pennies about 1895-1967, all the typical junk which has no value, and about 100 post 1947 half crowns, my estimate £30, it sold for £120 (£140) which is just a joke!

1716 crown in Fine, lower than fine on the obverse ex mounted sold £380 which I suppose was not too bad.

1739 crown in VF sold £670 which is ok..

1847 Gothic crown, fine tops, exmounted and had 4 holes in the rim sold for I think £500

And this one..... they described a 1925 half crown as extremely fine, however when I examined it closely it was really no more than a medium to better VF, and it had staining, it sold for £160.

I swear if we all just go and buy a load of stuff and junk from eBay and sell it through an auction like this we would make tons of money

Mat

[DaveG38 405]

Mat

Its not much better at ordinary antique auctions. I went to the Canterbury one on Saturday and I couldn't believe what people were bidding on. In one case a small tub of circulated junk copper weighing no more than couple of pounds went for £150+ premiums etc. There was nothing at all in this at all, no lurking 1926 MEs or 1922 with 1927 reverse etc. just rubbish worth no more than melt value.

The same was true for a number of other lots, all of which went way beyond my estimate. I did pick up two lots with some nice British Empire silver stuff in e.g. an 1835 Rupee in EF plus some interesting South Africa coins in the same condition from the 1890s, but even now I'm wondering if I paid OTT. I certainly see it being tricky to make a small return on them using ebay.

I think the world's going mad and it must relate to the current economic climate.

DaveG38

[VickySilver 830]

Hi Mat,

Yes, some very high prices. I still think that the single coin lot rarities such as the 1860/59 penny that you describe are the better deal when compared to tubs full of dirty old bronze and copper. I got the W&W catalogue but don't have recall as to just how nice the overdate penny was but seem to recall perhaps GVF or EF (?). Just how much is fair for these? A GEF piece with some lustre and no real wear may be a fair buy at 3k in my opinion but as wear levels pick up I think the price should fall.

IMO (in my opinion) F should go for about 1k, VF for 1800, EF 2400-2600, GEF 3k-3200 & possibly up to 4k for a really nice specimen. I have not ever seen one that I thought was truly mint state uncirculated and that is partly the nature of this overdate which seems to come complete with clash marks and soft struck Britannia, etc.

Overall quite scarce but not exceptionally rare. Another will come along with more favorable terms I should think.

E.D.

[Rob 3,152]

I take a similar view to Mat. Most of what I have seen in the past on offer at W & W is overgraded and generally a waste of time. I drove down to their last sale in February as there were 2 pattern halfpennies I was interested in. When I looked at them, both were only currency pieces with no features even vaguely resembling the defining points of the patterns. I asked if there was a list of notices and was told no. I pointed out the mistakes and asked if anyone was going to generate a notice. I was told no. When another lot which was listed as gilt was clearly a currency piece with the quality of gilding akin to a painted Christmas decoration I gave up, stopped looking and left to have a more productive day. When asked if I was going to the sale, I pointed out the futility of doing so.

Maybe that is why I didn't get a complimentary catalogue this time round. That could just be a plus, folks.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Rob

[VickySilver 830]

Rob, I have had to send back a number of coins to them and so do not bid with them any more. There seemed to be cleaning and overgrading that naturally concerned me as I was seeking individual coins for my collection. I always still like to look but no touchee....

[Rob 3,152]

Rob, I have had to send back a number of coins to them and so do not bid with them any more. There seemed to be cleaning and overgrading that naturally concerned me as I was seeking individual coins for my collection. I always still like to look but no touchee....

I would never, ever bid blind at their sales. I put my foot in it the first time I went there when a Victorian sixpence listed as UNC fell out of the envelope and I immediately called their guy back on the grounds that I wouldn't have asked for a VF 6d, so it must therefore have been the wrong lot. That was before I fully understood their grading.

[Mat 2]

Rob by any chance were these gilt patterns an 1806 half and a 1807 penny? If so they came up in this auction today.... they looked like normal coins with something like gold car touch up paint over the surface which was half worn off... they went for 90 and 100. I have two genuine copper gilt alloy proof ones in my possession to sell which look the part, and look nothing like the ones w&w offered.

I went there with the intention of buying 19 lots... with the intention of making a profit reselling and I came out empty handed. Admittedly the 1860/59 was good, it was better than the pic they featured on their site, but the ding on the reverse detracted at least 1k from my point of view as a perspective profiteer!

Never the less while I was there I did ask to view all the high value stuff, and it was pants really. I also felt they were craftily trying to generate a false interest by putting an estimate of £1000 on the 1860/59 to make people think a real bargain is coming when of course its going to exceed it by double! And to prove the point I phoned them up the day before and asked for the coin appraisal guy, and asked why the low estimate, he told me its a modest estimate as that’s all the owner of it is expecting! What a crap answer.

Well it was my first time at W&W, glad I went because it opened up my eyes to the prices being paid for crap at auction houses, in light of that, I am going to submit 6 high value coins. 4 which I know will sell on ebay for £500 each and 2 which I can easily sell on ebay for £1600 and £2500. I am also going to submit a box of 2.5kg pre 1920 scrap silver coins to see what it will actually fetch as one lot. Hopefully they may be a better channel of selling, and at least give the buyers the chance to bid for some real decent coins.

On another note I went into a green antiques shop opposite where the auction was held, a guy has a coin stall inside. His stuff is priced at what you would expect in a high street coin shop but its good stuff! No use to me but for collectors I would recommend. He had a full set of william and mary crowns and about 40 charles I half crowns in trays underneath. Must have at least 20k of stock He was happy to let his bullion sovereigns go for £150 each which I really did not expect to find in a shop.

Mat

[Rob 3,152]

Rob by any chance were these gilt patterns an 1806 half and a 1807 penny? If so they came up in this auction today.... they looked like normal coins with something like gold car touch up paint over the surface which was half worn off...

On another note I went into a green antiques shop opposite where the auction was held, a guy has a coin stall inside. His stuff is priced at what you would expect in a high street coin shop but its good stuff! No use to me but for collectors I would recommend. He had a full set of william and mary crowns and about 40 charles I half crowns in trays underneath. Must have at least 20k of stock He was happy to let his bullion sovereigns go for £150 each which I really did not expect to find in a shop.

Mat

Certainly a halfpenny was one of them last time round and your description fits what I saw. This is probably the same as last time as there is no way anyone with even the most basic knowledge would accept it as a genuine gilt proof, so is probably the same item rejected and included a second time round. I think most auctioneers put rejects in their following sale - but fail to mention the reason it was returned the first time. Certainly I have always checked for my returned items in the following sale and been able to identify them despite the description rarely mentioning the reason for return as a revision of the original, whoever's sale it is.

The coin/antiques shop is Peter Viola's. His prices are fair from what I have seen.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Rob

[Guest stock trading]

i have also tried peter's shop and i it was really wonderful experience

[Peckris 579]

Then my judgement is that W&W have changed while Peter Viola hasn't. W&W used to slightly undergrade, and were always ready conscientious about errors - in fact, Peter Viola was one of their trusted 'forgery spotters'. I bought some fantastic coins from there between 1997 and 2002, though sometimes the bidding did go a bit 'silly'.

Peter was always good - he'd point out some of his best stock, and when I was disappointed with not getting W&W lots, he'd sell me good coins at a discount : I got a VF 1696 crown, GEF 1797 twopence, AU 1819 crown, and two beautifully toned, prooflike, early strike bun halfpennies from him, among other things.

If W&W have downhill, then I'd go to Peter first, ask if he's going to the auction, get his advice, and in any case, buy something good from him!