Bronze Coins in Slabs

[RLC35 288]

I think I know what types of "Slabbed" errors you are talking about Gary. You may recall we had a 1860 Mule Farthing purchased on eBay by one of the Forum Members from NYC. The coin was a beautiful Red 1860, uncirculated Farthing, but after receiving the coin it was determined by the new owner to NOT be a Mule. The new owner was able to get his money back from the seller, but Ron Guth came on the Forum and stated that the coin (which his company slabbed) was indeed a mule, but it was only partially beaded on the reverse, so it must be a new variety! I personally never believed that explaination, and I don't think anyone else did, as the coin didn't sell after that. The slabbing company was either PCGS or NGC, whichever one Ron Guth is an Officer in.

BTW...the above two slabbing companies are the two most respected in the USA!

Edited June 17, 2009 by RLC35

[wybrit 2]

I think I know what types of "Slabbed" errors you are talking about Gary. You may recall we had a 1860 Mule Farthing purchased on eBay by one of the Forum Members from NYC. The coin was a beautiful Red 1860, uncirculated Farthing, but after receiving the coin it was determined by the new owner to NOT be a Mule. The new owner was able to get his money back from the seller, but Ron Guth came on the Forum and stated that the coin (which his company slabbed) was indeed a mule, but it was only partially beaded on the reverse, so it must be a new variety! I personally never believed that explaination, and I don't think anyone else did, as the coin didn't sell after that. The slabbing company was either PCGS or NGC, whichever one Ron Guth is an Officer in.

BTW...the above two slabbing companies are the two most respected in the USA!

Does anyone have a link to that claim? I must have missed that event. I did a quick search on coinking's posts at CU (he is Ron, who is at PCGS) and found no such claim. Granted, it could have been deleted later.

I know that just about everyone and their dog who has a toothed 1860 thinks that he/she has the mule.

I have a mule farthing slabbed by PCGS (but not a red one) and it really is a mule. The funny thing about that one is that is was called a penny!

[RLC35 288]

Wybrit,

The whole discussion, and subsequent return of the 1860 suspect Mule, is in this Forums "Lots of British coin related Discussions."

The first post is in Feb, 2007 and it goes on until May or June. The topic is "Re: 1860 Mule Farthing." Ron Guth's (CoinKing) own responses are also there.

Edited June 18, 2009 by RLC35

[Hussulo 6]

Link to topic below:

http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?...60&start=60

[wybrit 2]

Thanks folks. It appears that I really did miss an interesting discussion. I'd have to agree with those who disagreed with Ron. I think he's fighting an uphill battle redefining beads vs using the generally accepted practice of defining a beaded border as one that is beaded around the entire periphery.

[scottishmoney 29]

Thanks folks. It appears that I really did miss an interesting discussion. I'd have to agree with those who disagreed with Ron. I think he's fighting an uphill battle redefining beads vs using the generally accepted practice of defining a beaded border as one that is beaded around the entire periphery.

If said discussion was on the PCGS forum it would have been nuked pronto. That forum is bad that way, no criticism of any kind is tolerated there. Kind of like Ayatollah Khamenei in Iran, you are either with us, or you will be cut down.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

Here is ANOTHER mis-attributed Bronze slab....

I only WISH it WERE what it says on the label....

Edited June 20, 2009 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[wybrit 2]

Here is ANOTHER mis-attributed Bronze slab....

I only WISH it WERE what it says on the label....

Ditto here. I just received this 1876H halfpenny NGC stated was "small date." I guess since the H makes the date shorter that it's a small date, right? Get a copy of Freeman and ESC, guys!

[scottishmoney 29]

I am of the opinion, especially recently, that the grading companies are overly and overtly optimistic for their submitters. This takes form in over graded coins, and missattributions that bring about significant price differentials betwixt reality and what they state on their holder.

I have a Queen Anne crown from 1707 that is testament to that above statement, not only was the E on the crown missed, the coin was overgraded by at least 10-12 points IMO - notice the lack of H. Needless to say, I liberated poor Queen Anne from her plastic tomb.

[VickySilver 830]

A bit of a harsh assessment I would say there. I think Scotish, that you should cite the service who placed your coin in the TPG, perhaps with pictures for the benefit of the rest of us. Also, as you may know there is technical and market grading. PCGS may give a coin an uncirculated number (60 through 70) to a coin that is mint state in that it is preserved essentially as it left the mint, even not fully struck or on a faulty planchet, etc.

An old Glendinning or Spink GEF can come away as a 65 many times, I have found. I will freely admit that I do not have the capacity to send out pictures but have a 1926 ME penny bought from an SNC cantalogue of nearly 10 years ago listed by them as "GEF with considerable lustre" that graded as 65RB by PCGS and will say that is a fair grade as the coin is without blemish and fully unmarred surfaces and devices with NO wear whatsoever.

I will say that I have seen quite a few graded bits by PCGS and NGC and find that their certification as to type in 19th and 20th C. coins (with bronze hypervarietals being excepted) to be generally quite accurate. I do have some quibbles on occasion with the evaluated number but then again I have differences by the non-numerical assessments of UK dealers on many occasions and have definately found there to be grade inflation a much more common phenomenon.

Nitpicking and finding extreme exceptions do not, in my opinion condemn the service provided by these companies. I also see that no shrift is given by other posters to the value of preserving coins within these tombs. Bad, but also good that we can not get our grimy fingers on the surfaces of many of these coins. I think that if a coin is particularly rare and uncirculated or proof, especially those from the last 150 years or so be considered for slabbing on that basis alone. As for the circulated bits or gold, well, I do not see the pressing need for these slabs.

[Hussulo 6]

As for the circulated bits or gold, well, I do not see the pressing need for these slabs.

I've started putting my gold coins into my own slabs because although gold doesn't tone and is not affected by verdigris etc. it is actually a relativity soft metal therefore easy to mark and damage.

At the end of the day some will argue that coins have survived for hundreds of years without slabs and they could still survive without them, but we are all custodians of the coins we own and when we pass away they will belong to some other collector/s. Therefore we have a duty to protect them and try to keep them in best condition as possible be it slabs cabinets or other wise. Its all down to personal preference.

If anyone wants to take away any wise words from the posts made so far and to summarise:

Don't always believe what is written on the label whether it be grade or variety but slabs themselves are a safe and secure way to store your coins.

[Coin_Hunter 0]

Do slabs really do anything to raise the potential price realised or do they just make it harder to photograph the coins inside of them?

[VickySilver 830]

Well, that is a rather difficult question to ask as the alternatives are not quite connceted. I think at least in the States that the slab if PCGS or NGC will raise the price over a raw coin that is unslabbed. That is not linked to the difficulies of photography of the coin however.

A great coin for sale in the UK may not have a higher price in the slab, and so there is a difference in venue, so thus the conditional in my answer.

[Gary D 76]

Well, that is a rather difficult question to ask as the alternatives are not quite connceted. I think at least in the States that the slab if PCGS or NGC will raise the price over a raw coin that is unslabbed. That is not linked to the difficulies of photography of the coin however.

A great coin for sale in the UK may not have a higher price in the slab, and so there is a difference in venue, so thus the conditional in my answer.

I have been trying to decide if to have a bronze penny slabbed, one reason for my indecision is that I usually remove coins from their slabs when I recieve them. Another is the cost and practicallity of just slabbing one coin. Of cause the reason for contemplating slabbing is the possible enhancement in value.

[VickySilver 830]

Gary, I guess we are getting a bit off the topic, but is your picture of the coin(s) the one you are contemplating sending off? There are two pictures of 1970 reverse penny, so I must be missing something unless you are wondering if it is a "double reverse" coin you are trying to authenticate. Can you give a bit more information?

[1949threepence 3,367]

Do slabs really do anything to raise the potential price realised or do they just make it harder to photograph the coins inside of them?

I'm not convinced they do raise the price, personally, and if they do, the effect is marginal for experienced buyers. But from a coin vendor's point of view, it sounds kind of good to say that a coin is "slabbed". To the inexperienced buyer, it may place an entirely underserved cache of extra value on the coin.

[VickySilver 830]

Well, I am definately not on the other side of the fence on this one, but one aspect of added value afforded by the slabbing (and I mean NGC, PCGS, or possibly CGS) one has at least some sort of backing to declaration of grade or type to a "sight unseen" coin.

[Gary D 76]

Gary, I guess we are getting a bit off the topic, but is your picture of the coin(s) the one you are contemplating sending off? There are two pictures of 1970 reverse penny, so I must be missing something unless you are wondering if it is a "double reverse" coin you are trying to authenticate. Can you give a bit more information?

Yes that is both sides and I'm thinking slabbing it may increase it's value, the value of which I have no idea at present.

Gary

[DaveG38 405]

Gary, I guess we are getting a bit off the topic, but is your picture of the coin(s) the one you are contemplating sending off? There are two pictures of 1970 reverse penny, so I must be missing something unless you are wondering if it is a "double reverse" coin you are trying to authenticate. Can you give a bit more information?

Yes that is both sides and I'm thinking slabbing it may increase it's value, the value of which I have no idea at present.

Gary

Gary,

What's the story behind the existence of the double tailed penny? Was it made from two different dies. This seems likely as the two reverses are slightly different. If two dies were used then this could mean that there are two different minor varieties of the 1970 proof penny. The difference that I can see is in the pointing of the centre prong of the trident. On the left hand picture it seems to point directly to a bead, whereas on the right it seems to point to the right of the bead. Can you confirm this? If so, can anybody else confirm that there are two minor types of 1970 proof penny?

Edited June 28, 2009 by DaveG38

[Gary D 76]

Gary, I guess we are getting a bit off the topic, but is your picture of the coin(s) the one you are contemplating sending off? There are two pictures of 1970 reverse penny, so I must be missing something unless you are wondering if it is a "double reverse" coin you are trying to authenticate. Can you give a bit more information?

Yes that is both sides and I'm thinking slabbing it may increase it's value, the value of which I have no idea at present.

Gary

Gary,

What's the story behind the existence of the double tailed penny? Was it made from two different dies. This seems likely as the two reverses are slightly different. If two dies were used then this could mean that there are two different minor varieties of the 1970 proof penny. The difference that I can see is in the pointing of the centre prong of the trident. On the left hand picture it seems to point directly to a bead, whereas on the right it seems to point to the right of the bead. Can you confirm this? If so, can anybody else confirm that there are two minor types of 1970 proof penny?

That's interesting, I hadn't looked past it being a genuin error. The are no signs even under my works 20x microscope of any join either around the edge or inside the beading so I believe it's mint error. I will look closer at the pointing this evening when I get home.

Gary

[DaveG38 405]

Gary, I guess we are getting a bit off the topic, but is your picture of the coin(s) the one you are contemplating sending off? There are two pictures of 1970 reverse penny, so I must be missing something unless you are wondering if it is a "double reverse" coin you are trying to authenticate. Can you give a bit more information?

Yes that is both sides and I'm thinking slabbing it may increase it's value, the value of which I have no idea at present.

Gary

Gary,

What's the story behind the existence of the double tailed penny? Was it made from two different dies. This seems likely as the two reverses are slightly different. If two dies were used then this could mean that there are two different minor varieties of the 1970 proof penny. The difference that I can see is in the pointing of the centre prong of the trident. On the left hand picture it seems to point directly to a bead, whereas on the right it seems to point to the right of the bead. Can you confirm this? If so, can anybody else confirm that there are two minor types of 1970 proof penny?

That's interesting, I hadn't looked past it being a genuin error. The are no signs even under my works 20x microscope of any join either around the edge or inside the beading so I believe it's mint error. I will look closer at the pointing this evening when I get home.

Gary

Gary,

I wasn't suggesting in any way that it wasn't genuine. Only that however it was made, it appears to have used different dies for each side, unless, of course, something about the photographs is deceiving me. If two dies have been used, then it seems reasonable to me to expect that there are specimens of the normal coin with either of the two reverse dies out there somewhere.

[Gary D 76]

Gary, I guess we are getting a bit off the topic, but is your picture of the coin(s) the one you are contemplating sending off? There are two pictures of 1970 reverse penny, so I must be missing something unless you are wondering if it is a "double reverse" coin you are trying to authenticate. Can you give a bit more information?

Yes that is both sides and I'm thinking slabbing it may increase it's value, the value of which I have no idea at present.

Gary

Gary,

What's the story behind the existence of the double tailed penny? Was it made from two different dies. This seems likely as the two reverses are slightly different. If two dies were used then this could mean that there are two different minor varieties of the 1970 proof penny. The difference that I can see is in the pointing of the centre prong of the trident. On the left hand picture it seems to point directly to a bead, whereas on the right it seems to point to the right of the bead. Can you confirm this? If so, can anybody else confirm that there are two minor types of 1970 proof penny?

That's interesting, I hadn't looked past it being a genuin error. The are no signs even under my works 20x microscope of any join either around the edge or inside the beading so I believe it's mint error. I will look closer at the pointing this evening when I get home.

Gary

Gary,

I wasn't suggesting in any way that it wasn't genuine. Only that however it was made, it appears to have used different dies for each side, unless, of course, something about the photographs is deceiving me. If two dies have been used, then it seems reasonable to me to expect that there are specimens of the normal coin with either of the two reverse dies out there somewhere.

Just had a look and both sides are as identical as I can make out. Must be the photo. I guess I should send it off to the Royal Mint for authentication. Perhaps I will keep it in my collection although it would be nice to get it published as a known error. I saw a double sided brass 3d recently in an american auction with an estimate of something like $3500. I assume the only way my penny would be worth anything like that would be if it had been through a few auctions to get it noticed.

Gary

[DaveG38 405]

Gary, I guess we are getting a bit off the topic, but is your picture of the coin(s) the one you are contemplating sending off? There are two pictures of 1970 reverse penny, so I must be missing something unless you are wondering if it is a "double reverse" coin you are trying to authenticate. Can you give a bit more information?

Yes that is both sides and I'm thinking slabbing it may increase it's value, the value of which I have no idea at present.

Gary

Gary,

What's the story behind the existence of the double tailed penny? Was it made from two different dies. This seems likely as the two reverses are slightly different. If two dies were used then this could mean that there are two different minor varieties of the 1970 proof penny. The difference that I can see is in the pointing of the centre prong of the trident. On the left hand picture it seems to point directly to a bead, whereas on the right it seems to point to the right of the bead. Can you confirm this? If so, can anybody else confirm that there are two minor types of 1970 proof penny?

That's interesting, I hadn't looked past it being a genuin error. The are no signs even under my works 20x microscope of any join either around the edge or inside the beading so I believe it's mint error. I will look closer at the pointing this evening when I get home.

Gary

Gary,

I wasn't suggesting in any way that it wasn't genuine. Only that however it was made, it appears to have used different dies for each side, unless, of course, something about the photographs is deceiving me. If two dies have been used, then it seems reasonable to me to expect that there are specimens of the normal coin with either of the two reverse dies out there somewhere.

Just had a look and both sides are as identical as I can make out. Must be the photo. I guess I should send it off to the Royal Mint for authentication. Perhaps I will keep it in my collection although it would be nice to get it published as a known error. I saw a double sided brass 3d recently in an american auction with an estimate of something like $3500. I assume the only way my penny would be worth anything like that would be if it had been through a few auctions to get it noticed.

Gary

Gary,

Not a new variety then! Whew, that's a relief as I always worried about a whole lot of new ones appearing as soon as the print dried on my book