Upcoming Colin Cooke Sale?

[Peckris 579]

I have also included the flaws in coins which have become varieties in their own right in the eyes of collectors. e.g. the 1946 penny with an extra dot.

Do try to persuade ChrisP to include it in CCGB! I've tried but so far, no luck (oh well, time will tell...). I did persuade Spink to include it in the Standard Catalogue, so that's good at least.

Peckris,

Chris has a copy of my book and I am happy for him to include any of the varieties I have described, either in CCGB or the new 'Peck.' I guess its up to him what he wants to include. One issue through is what constitutes a 'genuine' variety and what has been accepted as one, even though its technically arisen as a flaw. It may be that Chris only wants to include those types which have arisen through design changes or where dies have been repaired following damage.

Sure, but if "The Bible" sees fit to include it ... and after all, CCGB does feature the 1897 version of "the dot", so for consistency sake it could go in I'd have thought. Still, as you say, it's up to him.

[Gary D 76]

I have also included the flaws in coins which have become varieties in their own right in the eyes of collectors. e.g. the 1946 penny with an extra dot.

Do try to persuade ChrisP to include it in CCGB! I've tried but so far, no luck (oh well, time will tell...). I did persuade Spink to include it in the Standard Catalogue, so that's good at least.

Peckris,

Chris has a copy of my book and I am happy for him to include any of the varieties I have described, either in CCGB or the new 'Peck.' I guess its up to him what he wants to include. One issue through is what constitutes a 'genuine' variety and what has been accepted as one, even though its technically arisen as a flaw. It may be that Chris only wants to include those types which have arisen through design changes or where dies have been repaired following damage.

Sure, but if "The Bible" sees fit to include it ... and after all, CCGB does feature the 1897 version of "the dot", so for consistency sake it could go in I'd have thought. Still, as you say, it's up to him.

The problem with these coins with various dots etc, are they varieties or errors. They seem to come and go from favour over time. It's a bit lke the 1926 Halfcrown with the missing colons after OMN. It's now recognised as filled dies and comes in a whole variety of shades. I have a 1 colon missing but they also come in no upper stop, no lower stops , no stops after GRA etc. So it's gone out of fashion as a meaningfull variety.

[DaveG38 405]

Gary,

You are quite right about the progressive nature of die faults of various kinds and the fact that they throw up a wide range of 'varieties.' When I was researching the 20C bronze types, I came across references to a whole load of die cracks, broken dies and filled dies of varying degrees of severity, all of which lead to what might be described as varieties. The trouble is that they go on ad infinitum.

I took the view that it was best to concentrate on those which arose through either deliberate design change, enforced design changes (e.g. where a die became damaged) and only to include faults of the kind mentioned above where collectors/dealers have 'decided' to label a particular type a variety e.g. the 1946 dot penny. Was I right? I don't know, but it seemed to me to make sense at the time. I have wondered whether to describe all these damage types in a separate book but I rather think it might have an even smaller appeal than the existing one!

[scott 144]

look at the americans, every singe tiny error is listed as a varieties.

some should be listed if there are enough imo

[Gary D 76]

look at the americans, every singe tiny error is listed as a varieties.

some should be listed if there are enough imo

I'm ok if it's a repeatable error like the 1946 dot but so many are just one off's that escaped quality control and should have gone in the scrap bin.

[Peckris 579]

Also, I believe that the 1946 dot penny differs from a filled die in one very important respect : it's a raised flaw in the field of the final coin, rather than part of the design disappearing. A classic example of the latter was the 1961 halfcrown "E.F. designer initials missing" - remember that one? Now that's really gone out of fashion in a big way.

[Coppers 58]

Did anyone manage to win any of the pennies or farthings in the recent CC sale?

[VickySilver 830]

Yes, this thread got railroaded just a bit. It did not look like there were universal great prices but it seemed to me at least that a few prices were remarkable:

1956 proof farthing at 1550 plus comission,,,,,what about 1750 or so afterwards seems a pretty big number.

1839 silver proof farthing at 3100 plus fees...about 3600 or so.

The later rare but sadly looked to be a bit mishandled.

Well, what do others think and/or did they have any wins?

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Yes.

I'm trying to accumulate a specimen from each year 1860-1936 in uncirculated with as much lustre as possible. I have been struggling with 1915 & 1916, so I picked those up and whilst I was at it, the 1919 is better than the one I have so I had that too. I got beaten off the nice 1898, which is a shame because it was very nice - would have had to pay £80 to stay in.

In hand, the 1915 will probably do I would have thought, but would be surprised if a better 1916 doesn't come along some day, somebody somewhere must have them all. The 1919 is nice, pleased with it.

Not many 'easy' ones left now, then it's into the H's, KN's, Low Tides, Modified Effigies and the Bun Heads My wallet can't wait.

Interesting collection I thought, enjoyed it, very glad I'm not on the bunheads yet, could've got nasty - there were some crackers in there.

Coin of the sale for me ? Lot 132 - not surprised it went for £350, it has everything, Low Tide, condition and a spacey date.

Interesting that Lot 38 went for it's low estimate. I wonder precisely how many people are in the market for a variation at that price ? A handfull around the world ?

[VickySilver 830]

Yes, I think that the 1915 and '16 pennies may be a bit tougher well struck and with good lustre than are given credit . The 1917 - 1921 well struck and with good luster are good coins as well, even London Mint. I have had pretty good luck (well maybe a bit of persistence as well) in the penny series so have learned them very well by date and can answer some questions.

I DO NOT collect the hypervarietals and let the big fights be fought by others over these bits; a big fight over an "open 3" in VF I just can not see, but more power to those collectors.

[Gary D 76]

Yes, I think that the 1915 and '16 pennies may be a bit tougher well struck and with good lustre than are given credit . The 1917 - 1921 well struck and with good luster are good coins as well, even London Mint. I have had pretty good luck (well maybe a bit of persistence as well) in the penny series so have learned them very well by date and can answer some questions.

I DO NOT collect the hypervarietals and let the big fights be fought by others over these bits; a big fight over an "open 3" in VF I just can not see, but more power to those collectors.

I was the second bidder on the 1908 F164A, the next bid would have cost another £55, just could bring myself to do it. Hopefully I wont regret it. I was also 2nd on the 1915 resessed ear, just a minor upgrade and didn't have my heart in it as I was looking at the 1908. I did win the 1913 F176 which has taken my up a notch but again I wasn't going to fight over it.

[Peckris 579]

Yes, I think that the 1915 and '16 pennies may be a bit tougher well struck and with good lustre than are given credit . The 1917 - 1921 well struck and with good luster are good coins as well, even London Mint. I have had pretty good luck (well maybe a bit of persistence as well) in the penny series so have learned them very well by date and can answer some questions.

I DO NOT collect the hypervarietals and let the big fights be fought by others over these bits; a big fight over an "open 3" in VF I just can not see, but more power to those collectors.

I agree about the 1915 and 1916 - those are two very difficult pennies in Unc. A good 1921 is harder than you'd think, but 1917 - 1920 with good lustre seem to come up quite often... well struck, though? (sharp intake of breath).

I've tended to 'draw the varieties line' at the major ones (2mm LT H KN ME) but I wouldn't turn my nose up at an open 3, and I have a good 'recessed ear' 1915 and a BU 1940 single exergue line. Bun varieties are a different matter altogether - they need quite a high level of immersion, knowledge, enthusiasm, patience, and a bottomless wallet!

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Bun varieties are a different matter altogether - they need quite a high level of immersion, knowledge, enthusiasm, patience, and a bottomless wallet!

'Tis mainly for this reason that I have stayed out of them so far. The time is fast approaching though when I must get out my Freeman/Gouby etc, sit down and work out exactly what it is I am going to try to achieve with the series. I guess the ultimate goal, some way down the line is to 'do a Crocker' and auction them off. Maybe plod along for 20 years accumulating the best example of each year that I can find and then add a few 'funky' pieces towards the end to add spice/interest. Or maybe I'll get one of my kids interested, who knows.

Lets see. 1860-1894 = 35 pieces. Average of £180 in UNC with lustre ? Maybe £200 = £7,000, that's not as bad as I thought.

Mr Crocker did well accumulating all that lot in just 5 years didn't he, must have been at it nearly full time.

Anyone have any alternative bun head collecting themes ?

[VickySilver 830]

I think it will go more than 7k, and there are a few more to add if you get the Heaton coins (40). Also, try finding a mint 1882 London - that is a crushing proposition. If you just pick the most common for each year, then you could get away with the 1882 Heaton; also, mint 1867 through 1871 will bust that price average. Still, fun things to collect & rewarding if you take your time.

[Peckris 579]

Bun varieties are a different matter altogether - they need quite a high level of immersion, knowledge, enthusiasm, patience, and a bottomless wallet!

'Tis mainly for this reason that I have stayed out of them so far. The time is fast approaching though when I must get out my Freeman/Gouby etc, sit down and work out exactly what it is I am going to try to achieve with the series. I guess the ultimate goal, some way down the line is to 'do a Crocker' and auction them off. Maybe plod along for 20 years accumulating the best example of each year that I can find and then add a few 'funky' pieces towards the end to add spice/interest. Or maybe I'll get one of my kids interested, who knows.

Lets see. 1860-1894 = 35 pieces. Average of £180 in UNC with lustre ? Maybe £200 = £7,000, that's not as bad as I thought.

Mr Crocker did well accumulating all that lot in just 5 years didn't he, must have been at it nearly full time.

Anyone have any alternative bun head collecting themes ?

This would be my strategy :

In AUnc or better :

1860 beaded border

1861 4+D

1862 or 1863

1874 (older portrait)

1876H

any date between 1884 and 1893 in strict BU

In genuine Fine to VF (depending on rarity) :

1864 (VF)

1865/3 (F-VF)

1869 (F)

1871 (VF)

1875H (F-VF)

Having got those, you have the major types, plus the major rarities. Then you can concentrate on looking around for other dates in high grade, or other rare varieties in a condition you can afford, building up a nice collection as you go. That's how I'd do it, anyway. (Personally I'd avoid busting the bank for rarities in high grade, but I know there are plenty of collectors who'd "go for it".)

[scott 144]

for me getting hold of any of those dates on the cheap is good

what about throwing in the 1879 narrow date as something to get.

i'm acctually happy to get ANY bunhead in fine or VF, still good looking at that. but i'm currently getting VF or better 1895+ (have the 95 96 and 01, in that grade 03 in EF..) as those are good looking pennies and cheap.

the crocker collection had some interesting pieces, but not really a date run, i was dissapointed by the lack of a few pennys i was after (1919KN for example) and some of the rarer date types to compare too.

I guess just checking ebay with a fine tooth comb can help most people see average grade or low and ignore/presume it rubbish, i pick up all sorts on the cheap.

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Interesting, thanks.

In reality though, as we well know, there won't be a strategy. The collection will evolve according to what's available when there is free money to be allocated to it.

[Peckris 579]

Interesting, thanks.

In reality though, as we well know, there won't be a strategy. The collection will evolve according to what's available when there is free money to be allocated to it.

Very true! Though certain pennies like high grade 1861 1862 1863 , plus 1883 - 1893, come up often enough to make 'em strategic if you wanted to.