Demonetisation of Pre-decimal Coins

[bilnic 0]

My particular interest is UK decimal coinage, but am also interested in any earlier issues that might still be valid (I will not use the words 'legal tender').

Can you help, please, with the dates various coins were demonetised. I am starting with the crown as the highest velue, but information on higher values would be appreciated. Where possible I have given dates that I am aware of.

5/- Crown

4/- Double Florin

2/6d Half Crown - 01 Jan 1970

2/- Florin

1/- Shilling

6d Sixpence - 30 Jun 1980

4d Groat

3d Threepence (silver)

3d Threepence (brass?) 31 Aug 1971

1d Penny - 31 Aug 1971

0.5d Halfpenny - 01 Aug 1969

0.25d Farthing - 31 Dec 1960

0.125d Half Farthing

0.0833d Third Farthing

Maundy Money - original face value changed from old pence to new pence, i.e. worth 2.4 times original value. But have any very early issues been demonitised? (For some reason, I keep thinking 1820).

Plus, of course, any denominations that I might have missed.

I think that you will realise what I'm getting at. By a process of elimination we might be able to find any gaps in the system.

Thank you.

Bill.

[scottishmoney 29]

The shilling and florin were not demonetised until the early 1990's when they were demonetised alongside the larger 5P and 10P coins.

[bilnic 0]

Of course, I should have remembered that.

Bill.

[bilnic 0]

That gives the following -

2/- Florin - 30 Jun 1993

1/- Shilling - 31 Dec 1990

Bill.

[Peckris 579]

The Crown - as such - has never been demonetised. It ceased to be issued as a regular unit of currency after 1901, all subsequent issues being commemoratives or limited (for collectors only). However, they have always technically and theoretically been legal tender - therefore a Churchill crown has a current face value of 25p. The first decimal crown was the Silver Wedding 25p crown of 1972. (In any case, the term "crown" does not really denote a denomination as such).

However, it has never been officially declared (to my knowledge) whether the upgrade of crown-sized pieces to a face value of £5 in the 1990s means that the descriptive term "Crown" ceased to exist, or simply became a £5 crown instead.

I'm unable to help with the double florin, or fractional farthings I'm afraid.

I strongly suspect that the silver threepence - being a valid 3d piece - remained legal tender until the brass 3d was demonetised in 1971. Though it is also true that they did not circulate into the 1960s; bear in mind that two years after the last silver 3d, all silver was removed from coins due to the high value of silver.

[1949threepence 3,367]

Somebody might correct me ifm wrong, but I don't think ther double florin has ever officially been demonetised. It was only ever produced between 1887 and 1890, as part of an early attempt at decimalisation, and as such would have been worth 20p in 1971.

B

[scott 144]

i dont think it was cant remember what book it was in, but it wasn't demonitized, the silver 3D was in the late 40's i think

[scottishmoney 29]

I have about 90 quid face in pre-decimal, mostly pennies and halfpennies, but on up to crowns. I am still not catching onto that newfangled decimal stuff.

[bilnic 0]

My views on the name 'crown' is that if the once every-day 2/6d was a half crown, then the 5/- must be a crown, even after it was decimalised as 25p. Note that the Royal Mint has not stopped using the term.

I believe (but can't prove) that the 5/- crown has not been demonetised, therefore presumably it would be still valid from the time of George IV. I am trying to establish whether my belief is correct.

Regarding the present £5 coins, the Royal Mint persists in associating the word 'crown' with them but I cannot accept this. I prefer to call them 'crown size' coins.

I believe that the 4/- double florin has never been demonetised.

It is generally accepted (but is it true?) that the silver 3d and 4d (groat) are still not demonetised as they are regarded as Maundy money, being of the same grade of silver. Pre-decimal is acceptable at face value in new pence (i.e. 2.4 times its original value) back to George IV.

I'm looking for someone to prove me wrong and say that ... was demonetised and say when.

Challenge - prove me wrong!

Bill.

[bilnic 0]

i dont think it was cant remember what book it was in, but it wasn't demonitized, the silver 3D was in the late 40's i think

Silver 3d was minted until 1945 but I remember them still in circulation well into the 1950s, not many, but a few.

I think that you could be associating it with the change from silver to cupro-nickel in 1947.

Again, please prove me wrong - that is the reason for asking the question.

Bill.

[josie 8]

Good thread.

Just posting.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/demonetised

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonetization#Demonetisation

Edited September 7, 2009 by josie

[Red Riley 2]

Fractional farthings (the only one legal tender in the UK was the half farthing) were demoneitised in 1869 at the same time as all other copper issues.

I am 99% certain the crown is still legal tender (otherwise why did they make them after 1971 - if they were not legal tender they would not have been coins but medals).

Believe the silver 3d, although it left circulation in the late 50s remained legal tender until 1971. For all I know, the double florin is still legal tender.

[Peckris 579]

I too believe that the Crown is still legal tender. But it's an interesting denomination - it and the halfcrown appear to have been introduced by the Tudors, when they varied between being gold or silver - under James I they seem to have been both.

Nowadays it seems to refer more to a size than an actual denomination and hasn't been issued for currency for more than 100 years, which is quite possibly why decimalisation didn't make a specific ruling about them. Let's face it, no-one I know ever tried to spend even a Churchill crown even though its mintage ranks as a currency piece.

[Red Riley 2]

I too believe that the Crown is still legal tender. But it's an interesting denomination - it and the halfcrown appear to have been introduced by the Tudors, when they varied between being gold or silver - under James I they seem to have been both.

Nowadays it seems to refer more to a size than an actual denomination and hasn't been issued for currency for more than 100 years, which is quite possibly why decimalisation didn't make a specific ruling about them. Let's face it, no-one I know ever tried to spend even a Churchill crown even though its mintage ranks as a currency piece.

My late father worked in shops from about 1937, and he recalled a superstition among the staff that if anyone spent a crown in the shop, then someone would get the sack! Think he might have been getting confused with the more real dangers of the double florin, but it does show that crowns (probably late Victorian) were still occasionally used at the time.

Winding forward a bit, c. 1970 I acquired a 1960 crown from the butchers up the road which they had taken in as legal tender for half a dozen pork chops or whatever. I still have it, and it clearly has some wear.

[Sylvester 15]

Well here's a complex discussion indeed!

First gold coins, from half sovereign up to 5 pound, all are still legal tender for their original value.

Crowns as far as I'm aware were never demonetised.

Some other denominations, according to the Coincraft Catalogue, in 1971 the following coins were ratified as having legal tender status after decimalisation day;

Double Florin - as 20p

Florin - as 10p

Shilling - as 5p

Sixpence - as 2 1/2p

Silver Threepences - as 3p (yes 3p).

Maundy - all revalued to decimal pence

I'm not sure if the groat was included or not, if it was ever actually demonetised.

With regards to the silver threepences, it was simply the inability to distinguish between maundy types and currency issues that led to all threepences after c.1845 being legal tender. Maundy currency is only legal tender as far back as George IV I believe. The obvious question for me though is does this 'legal' tender status only refer to wreath reverse threepences, or do the acorn and shield types of Geo V and VI count also?

Since sixpences, shillings and florins have all been demonetised it means that the following coins are all that are left of the pre-decimal era;

Five Pounds, Two Pounds, Sovereign, Half Sovereign, Crown, Double Florin, Silver Threepences and Maundy.

One can't help noticing the irony in the fact that the double florin has managed to outlast most of it's stablemates.

I suspect groats may be legal tender too.

[Red Riley 2]

I'm not sure if the groat was included or not, if it was ever actually demonetised.

I suspect groats may be legal tender too.

I believe they went in 1887. Bizarrely some were dated 1888, but they were produced for British Guiana.

[josie 8]

It is indeed complex.

[bilnic 0]

It's certainly interesting and I've been hunting without success elsewhere. Pity a lot of events around the relevant time are not on the internet.

Here is something that I've just found which quotes the year 1870 which I've not seen mentioned in this context before.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threepence_(British_coin)

Text: Victorian threepences were produced both for maundy use and for normal circulation in all years between 1838 and 1901 except 1847, 1848, and 1852 (probably because of the possible advent of a decimal currency at the time (see florin), when the 3d at 1/80th of a pound would not have fitted within a decimal system. Currency silver threepences from 1838 to 1926 were of identical design and cannot usually be distinguished except in the best conditions when the higher striking standard of the maundy coins stand out; this resulted in the curious legal anomaly that when the currency was decimalised in 1971 all silver threepences from 1870 onwards were revalued at three new pence, not just the maundy coins. Threepences were produced with both the "young head" (1838–1887) and "Jubilee head" (1887–1893), inscribed VICTORIA D G BRITANNIAR REGINA F D, while those produced with the "old head" (1893–1901) are inscribed VICTORIA DEI GRA BRITT REGINA FID DEF IND IMP.

My question now: Any ideas where I might find official reference to 1870 in this context?

Thank you all for your interest in this.

Bill.

[bilnic 0]

Since starting this topic, my collecting interests have changed considerably and as I am now collecting pre-decimal, I’ve been making some enquiries on this subject, including asking the Royal Mint.

GOLD coins are outside my area of collecting (can’t afford them!), but I can give the low-down on the others.

NO COIN ISSUED PRIOR TO THE ACT OF 1816 IS LEGAL TENDER.

1816 ONWARDS:-

SILVER and Cupro-nickel

5/- Crown - all are legal tender at 25p.

4/- Double-Florin - all are legal tender at 20p.

2/6 Halfcrown - demonetised end of 1969.

2/- Florin - valid at 10p until demonetised end of June 1993.

1/- Shilling - valid at 5p until demonetised end of 1990.

6d Sixpence - valid at 2½p until demonetised end of June 1980.

4d Groat (Britannia type) - demonetised end of August 1971.

3d Threepence (Acorn and Shield types) - demonetised end of August 1971.

3d Threepence (“3â€type) - “considered as†Maundy Money and legal tender at 3p.

2d Twopence (“2†type) - “considered as†Maundy Money and legal tender at 2p.

1½d Three-halfpence - never legal tender in Britain.

MAUNDY MONEY

All coins after 1816 are legal tender at their shown number of decimal pence.

BRASS

3d Threepence - demonetised end of August 1971.

COPPER

All Copper coins demonetised end of 1869.

BRONZE

1d Penny - demonetised end of August 1971.

½d - Halfpenny - demonetised end of August 1969.

¼d Farthing - demonetised end of 1960.

⅓f Third-Farthing - never legal tender in Britain.

BUT BEWARE

There are some so-called coins listed in some publications which do not conform to any specification given in a Royal Proclamation. Some of them might be referred to as “plain edge proof†or suchlike. If the Royal Proclamation stated that “the edge shall be grained†and made no mention of plain edges, they are not coins and have never had any monetary value.

Bill.

[Peckris 579]

Since starting this topic, my collecting interests have changed considerably and as I am now collecting pre-decimal, I’ve been making some enquiries on this subject, including asking the Royal Mint.

Good work, Bill. I'd never realised that double florins were still legal tender. That means (along with the Crown) that both the coins that contributed to the "Barmaid's Ruin" in the late 19th Century, are still spendable! Anyone know a short-sighted barmaid?

[azda 979]

Also interesting that 3ds are also considered Maundy types and still valid lol

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Anyone know a short-sighted barmaid?

Quite a few short skirted ones here in Essex....

[Red Riley 2]

Anyone know a short-sighted barmaid?

I know some that try to serve you while talking to their boyfriend on their i-phone whilst simultaneously chewing gum.

[azda 979]

Anyone know a short-sighted barmaid?

Quite a few short skirted ones here in Essex....

Essex chicks are easy

[bilnic 0]

Talking of barmaids (is a change of title needed?), I often carry a couple of old coins in my pocket with my change to clean them. I had a silver 3d and showed it to a new barmaid at my local. I told her that it was still legal tender but she said that she would get the sack if she accepted it. I told her that it would be far worse than that if I checked her till and found that she was distributing counterfeit £1 coins. I aslo told her that she would be very silly to accept even that small amount of sterling silver.

But this happened in Essex .....

Bill.