1863 penny sold for £19000!

[Mat 2]

Hi just a quick one, did any of you notice the 1863 penny that recently sold at London coin auction?

It was the slender 3 type, it fetched £19000!

Spink lists it as £800 in fine, and it was only about that condition, I am amazed!

[VickySilver 830]

Mat, can you link that one? That seems absolutely phenomenal & wonder if real how such a coin would be worth 6-8x a mint state 1849 or 15x a mint 1856 and 6+x a mint 1864 crosslet 4 or 12x a mint 1875H, etc.

I also completely fail to understand how 1882 London mint pennies in VF or above are not valued far in excess of a date VARIETAL! IMO (in my opinion) this is lunacy, but more power to the buyer if they can toss cash about like that.

[Mat 2]

Hi Vickysilver, is it just me or have I missed somthing in the description? Lot 1643:

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/index.php?PHP...age=Pastresults

Also take a look at lot 1325 which is another 1863 penny with a die number:

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/index.php?pag...amp;searchterm=

If you look back in the 1980s spink \ seaby coin catalogues there are no variations of any of the bronze pennys, just straight through dates 1860-1901, any of us may have had some of the rare ones and we would have never known!!!

[VickySilver 830]

Absolutely incredible! I would look for this coin in a resale (if it were to occur) to drop considerably. I can see a date varietal that is a mint mark or a major device alteration such as with the 1926ME being worth much more, but honestly a 600x premium for not even an overdate, I just can not get over. Even the famous penny of 1864 gets only a slight premium for the crosslet. I also think I would be most wary that the population of such open 3 pennies might be highly subject to increases. I have two 1863s in GEF or better and have NOT looked at them, and I collect pennies if only by date.

I have simply gone with a date collection of pennies and only made a few exceptions, and I guess am in the minority or out of the loop. I would like see you Mat or any other readers to elucidate the reasons for such a price and if it is sustainable or even advisable to buy such a coin.

Don't have the reference at the moment but I recall within the week seeing a higher grade halfpenny with die Letter going for much lower than previously - and I recall when THEY were all the rage....

[Rob 3,152]

I think it is in part due to new collectors entering the market which in turn is a result of the recent banking crisis.

I was at the last DNW sale and a small number of halfpennies did exceptionally well too. For years the number of people targeting George III patterns & proofs has been minimal. In the past I have regularly bid in the room against one other person who was a serious Soho collector and vice-versa, but we both had a reasonably similar expectation of the prices we would pay for a specific coin. There was always the occasional bidder of specific items such as dealers to fill their lists, but never someone pursuing them en-bloc. At DNW the prices realised for lots 3089 (P1040 - £1100), 3090 (P1243 - £620) and 3091 (P1244 - £450) were way in excess of what you would have expected to pay. The first is admittedly quite rare, but we would have expected a hammer price of £450-600 and the coin although slabbed PF64 had slight wear to Britannia's left breast. The other two lots are common and you would have expected prices maybe up to £300 or so on a good day. They all went to a person who neither of us had seen before at a sale and he was bidding against a phone bidder. A similar situation existed at Baldwin's Spring sale where the P1236 made £440 hammer, but both of us thought this was too high. I'm not going to be presumptuous and say that between us we determine the market, but the indications are that there is an influx of new buyers who are raising the bar. Whether it is sustainable is another matter.

The same appears to be happening with the minor varieties of pennies as VickySilver says. It appears varieties at the individual die level are becoming the latest hot topic for currency collectors. This has always been the case for proofs and patterns, but the number of pieces has always been known to be restricted in most instances to a few examples. Like VS, I think this is likely to end in tears for a select few. It is another example of a market that is becoming overheated. Price inflation is insidious, creeping inexorably upwards as long as there are more buyers than sellers. This has accelerated in the past couple of years with the problems in the banking industry, but the important question is what happens when the same people want to sell as mainstream investing returns to normality. Collecting has always been a question of averages when the time comes to sell, as some pieces you will have bought cheaply yet others you will have paid too much for. It happens to everybody whether the price is £1 or £1000. Some people will not be patient enough to wait for inflation to erode the cost of sellers and buyer's premiums, a task that will become impossible if that some becomes too many.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Rob

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Agree with that.

There are lots of factors I think, particularly where pennies are concerned in the last decade or so;

1. Baby boomers reaching a stage of life where they have disposable income.

2. Disaffection with more traditional tax free savings vehicles

3. The price of gold rendering high end gold coins just too darn expensive, making investors look elsewhere for value

4. An increase in published material focussing on bronze/coppers

5. Several important collections reaching the auction room stimulating interest.

6. the ebay effect - a new collector is born every hour

7. The recent publicity generated by the mule 20p

I found the Crocker biography interesting, in and out of pennies in under 5 years. Be interesting to know what the overall return on the 'portfolio' was over such a short time period.

I think it's right to say that there are collectors and investors. I can see the investors losing interest over time as different markets take their turn to shine.

That's bound to have a cooling effect, especially at the top end.

I personally think £19,000 for a skinny 3 is very risky, how many people constitute the marketplace for that ? Can't be very many. Also, as has been said, At £19k, someone is going to 'find' another one, or two....

It's all interesting stuff though.

Just my thoughts for what they are worth.

[Rob 3,152]

Also, as has been said, At £19k, someone is going to 'find' another one, or two....

At £19K forget the task of searching, someone will soon make one. A file cut here or there (or a CNC rig second hand for a couple thousand), a quick spin to polish off the rough edges and there you have it. A good reason why paying large sums for faintly discernible features could land you in the mire. Material cost, less than a quid.

[Mat 2]

Hi Vickysilver, i am guessing we probably share the same view on this con.

I never look to hold on to a coin to make a profit,

[Mat 2]

Opps didnt mean to submit the above....

Hi Vickysilver, i am guessing we probably share the same view on this coin.

I never look to hold on to a coin to make a profit, I always try and get rid of the coin asap, even if I achieve less profit than I might do in the near future. I honestly would have capped my highest bid at £1000 on this coin, in the hope find a buyer at maybe £1250 for £250 profit or maybe a bit less.

I guess a couple things we need to look at now, see how much spink amend the value in their next catalogue, how many others suddenly turn up on the market, or as you assessed some one really has too much money to play with, and so must another person as it takes at least 2 people to get it up to £19k!

I am going with the last assumption, and I will honestly tell you if another was to crop up in that condition, my highest bid will still be only £1000 because despite the 19k sale I still believe I would only be able to sell it for no more than £1250. Unless we see more slender 3 sales I am going to put it down to a fluke on this occasion.

Mat

[1949threepence 3,367]

Opps didnt mean to submit the above....

Hi Vickysilver, i am guessing we probably share the same view on this coin.

I never look to hold on to a coin to make a profit, I always try and get rid of the coin asap, even if I achieve less profit than I might do in the near future. I honestly would have capped my highest bid at £1000 on this coin, in the hope find a buyer at maybe £1250 for £250 profit or maybe a bit less.

I guess a couple things we need to look at now, see how much spink amend the value in their next catalogue, how many others suddenly turn up on the market, or as you assessed some one really has too much money to play with, and so must another person as it takes at least 2 people to get it up to £19k!

I am going with the last assumption, and I will honestly tell you if another was to crop up in that condition, my highest bid will still be only £1000 because despite the 19k sale I still believe I would only be able to sell it for no more than £1250. Unless we see more slender 3 sales I am going to put it down to a fluke on this occasion.

Mat

Same here, Mat. There is no way I would pay £19k for any coin, even assuming I had that kind of dosh to throw around in the first place. It is a phenomenal sum of money to pay for a variant penny in not particularly brilliant condition.

[Peckris 579]

Same here, Mat. There is no way I would pay £19k for any coin, even assuming I had that kind of dosh to throw around in the first place. It is a phenomenal sum of money to pay for a variant penny in not particularly brilliant condition.

Agreed. My own philosophy (which I admit may not be mainstream) is to 'type collect' which means settling for a commoner coin in BU, then buying rarities or varieties that interest me, in as high a grade as seems reasonable on my budget. Some years ago that meant (e.g.) an 1871 penny in CD, but nowadays in VF.

At the end of the day, it is only the "prestige feeling" of owning something that no-one else has, and for me, that's barely worth three figures, let alone four or five.

[Coppers 58]

Does anyone recall the 'die 5' penny that sold for a similar amount the year before?

Here's the link...

http://www.coinlink.com/News/world-coins/u...a-record-17500/

[VickySilver 830]

Wow, Coppers, good recall. Also an outrageous sum. Glad this (or these) collectors interests don't sync up with mine!

[Coppers 58]

Wow, Coppers, good recall. Also an outrageous sum. Glad this (or these) collectors interests don't sync up with mine!

It would be interesting to see what would happen if either of these two pennies ever came up for auction again.

[Peckris 579]

OH

MY

GOD

I've looked at London Coin Auction lots before, usually to depress myself how strict their grading is compared to everyone else's. Today I decided to have a look at their Coins For Sale ....

DID I FALL INTO A PARALLEL UNIVERSE ???

Try this for size :

1967 halfcrown BU ----- TWENTY POUNDS

1966 penny BU ----- FIFTEEN POUNDS

Who, outside a lunatic asylum, would pay that money for those coins??? And, to make matters even more surreal and bizarre - THERE IS PROVENANCE !! On a 1967 halfcrown??? On a 1966 penny ?????

I must stop eating cheese before going to bed - it gives me these outrageous dreams Seriously though, to quote a certain Mr McEnroe, "they can not be serious !!!"

There is something seriously twisted here, but I can't pin down what. Under no circumstances are 1967 halfcrowns and 1966 pennies rare, and nor will they ever be, in the same way as time has shown with 1758 silver, 1787 shillings and sixpences, 1887 Jubilee Head silver, Constantine bronzes, 1936 coins, etc ... once a glut, always a glut.

But actually, their prices are demented right across the board, though none quite as insane as those 1960s items.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Peckris

[scott 144]

well i dunno, perhaps the same person bidding almost £4 on a 1910 penny in fair?

[VickySilver 830]

Ignore their store values. The auctions are a better place to hunt (usually except for this slender 3)....

[Peckris 579]

Ignore their store values. The auctions are a better place to hunt (usually except for this slender 3)....

But how can you ignore those prices? You have to ask yourself, who is a £20 1967 halfcrown or a £15 1966 penny aimed at? It can't be the likes of us, as you would hear us laughing all the way from the moon. So who, then? Gullible novices? I would have said London Coin Auctions were too reputable for that kind of scam. So who, then? It makes no sense, none at all.

The more I think about this, the more baffled but also more annoyed I become. It's like they're either taking the mick, or trying to con someone as yet unidentified.

I wish one of their representatives would come on here and give us the benefit of their thinking.

[Coppers 58]

Ignore their store values. The auctions are a better place to hunt (usually except for this slender 3)....

But how can you ignore those prices? You have to ask yourself, who is a £20 1967 halfcrown or a £15 1966 penny aimed at? It can't be the likes of us, as you would hear us laughing all the way from the moon. So who, then? Gullible novices? I would have said London Coin Auctions were too reputable for that kind of scam. So who, then? It makes no sense, none at all.

The more I think about this, the more baffled but also more annoyed I become. It's like they're either taking the mick, or trying to con someone as yet unidentified.

I wish one of their representatives would come on here and give us the benefit of their thinking.

I suspect that what you are paying for here is not the coin, but the plastic that surrounds it and the grade that it has been assigned. Here in the United States such nonsensical pricing logic has become the norm rather than the exception. Here's one of our more extreme examples...

a penny for your thoughts

Edited October 14, 2009 by Coppers

[Peter 615]

Whilst on the subject .....How the hell could anyone be interested in this bit of copper?

Put a hole thru it and use it as a washer....but an item to drool over in your prized collection!!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EXTREMELY-RARE-1862-...id=p3286.c0.m14

[Coppers 58]

Whilst on the subject .....How the hell could anyone be interested in this bit of copper?

Put a hole thru it and use it as a washer....but an item to drool over in your prized collection!!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EXTREMELY-RARE-1862-...id=p3286.c0.m14

Careful Peter -- were it the only one known you might be making light of a £19000 coin.

[scott 144]

it is the signiture version lol

[VickySilver 830]

Darn, I must be getting old and missed that bit. Oh well, suppose it is too late to bid....Intrinsically the same value as the "slender 3" so MUST be a bargain.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

Whilst on the subject .....How the hell could anyone be interested in this bit of copper?

Put a hole thru it and use it as a washer....but an item to drool over in your prized collection!!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EXTREMELY-RARE-1862-...id=p3286.c0.m14

LOL.... First time one of MY auctions was noted here.... But I suppose it's better than being recognized in "EBAY LAUGHS"

It IS a TERRIBLY LOW GRADE specimen, with just barely enough detail at the CRUCIAL points to be identified as an obverse signature type, but NOT good enough to determine whether it is an Obverse 2 or an Obverse 3.....

I've sold WORSE condition RARE coins often enough to know that there is a market for everything.... You just don't know when or where or who....

RE: the 1863 slender 3, the specimen that recently sold is the 2nd known specimen, I believe purchased by the same buyer that won the 1863 die number 5, a unique (so far) coin.

The Crocker collection seemed to bring more of a true market value for MOST coins..... SOMETIMES, bidders get carried away with their bidding in what sometimes appears to be an exhibition of MACHO..... Sometimes it's merely to have a coin from a famous collection or with a significant provenance

Edited October 15, 2009 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[1949threepence 3,367]

OH

MY

GOD

I've looked at London Coin Auction lots before, usually to depress myself how strict their grading is compared to everyone else's. Today I decided to have a look at their Coins For Sale ....

DID I FALL INTO A PARALLEL UNIVERSE ???

Try this for size :

1967 halfcrown BU ----- TWENTY POUNDS

1966 penny BU ----- FIFTEEN POUNDS

Who, outside a lunatic asylum, would pay that money for those coins??? And, to make matters even more surreal and bizarre - THERE IS PROVENANCE !! On a 1967 halfcrown??? On a 1966 penny ?????

I must stop eating cheese before going to bed - it gives me these outrageous dreams Seriously though, to quote a certain Mr McEnroe, "they can not be serious !!!"

There is something seriously twisted here, but I can't pin down what. Under no circumstances are 1967 halfcrowns and 1966 pennies rare, and nor will they ever be, in the same way as time has shown with 1758 silver, 1787 shillings and sixpences, 1887 Jubilee Head silver, Constantine bronzes, 1936 coins, etc ... once a glut, always a glut.

But actually, their prices are demented right across the board, though none quite as insane as those 1960s items.

Mr McEnroe's reaction would be entirely apt ~ the only difference being that this time the ball wasn't on the line, and chalk didn't fly up

Totally beyond belief, and I would have said a surefire p***take, except that I know they are serious. I realise that place is ridicuously expensive, but that is really stretching credibility to the far end of absurdity. The only thing I can imagine is that they are trying to con novice collectors by offering extremely commonplace coins at ludicrously inflated prices, in a cynical attempt to boost their own profits.

Whilst on the subject .....How the hell could anyone be interested in this bit of copper?

Put a hole thru it and use it as a washer....but an item to drool over in your prized collection!!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EXTREMELY-RARE-1862-...id=p3286.c0.m14

I wouldn't even buy that at a very low price. It's no more than a flat thin metal disc.