An alternative to slabbed CGS coins

[Peckris 579]

Following on from the big discussion we've been having here : http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?...=4698&st=30

I contacted CGS and said that many of us seemed interested in a good grading / attribution service, but were less than enthusiastic about slabbing. I offered them a suggestion for an alternative system. This centres around the fact that they provide a 'computer archive' photograph with slabbed coins. Based on that I offered two possible scenarios :

1. Photo-only service.

Pay for a good watermarked (i.e. hard to fake) photograph which would contain enlargements of obverse and reverse, the CGS identification / grading / attribution tag, and a super-enlarged portion of a part of the coin that makes it unique (e.g. die flaw, unusual toning, spot, scratch, etc). This photograph would accompany the coin when selling and provide the same kind of enhanced value that slabbing does.

2. A slabbed photo service

Instead of slabbing the coin, CGS could slab a really good photo (obverse and reverse), with the proviso that the slab used would be markedly different from those used for slabbing coins, e.g. it would be very much thinner. Likewise, this slabbed photo would accompany the coin when selling, add value, etc.

Stephen Lockett emailed back and said he would put my suggestion to the CGS directors responsible. At this stage, I'd like some feedback from you guys. If, like me, you keep your coins in a cabinet and don't want to see them slabbed, would you welcome either of these alternative methods of 'adding value' to your collection? I've already indicated that I would, but obviously they will not introduce a new service for just one person. I did say that 'serious collectors' (you guys!) were a group that I felt sure that CGS would "like to embrace", but that with slabbing, this wasn't going to happen.

[Peckris 579]

Come on guys! Don't be shy. All I'm asking is your opinion. What do you think of these two proposed alternatives to slabbing? If such an alternative was introduced, would you consider using it? (NO commitment!)

[1949threepence 3,367]

Following on from the big discussion we've been having here : http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?...=4698&st=30

I contacted CGS and said that many of us seemed interested in a good grading / attribution service, but were less than enthusiastic about slabbing. I offered them a suggestion for an alternative system. This centres around the fact that they provide a 'computer archive' photograph with slabbed coins. Based on that I offered two possible scenarios :

1. Photo-only service.

Pay for a good watermarked (i.e. hard to fake) photograph which would contain enlargements of obverse and reverse, the CGS identification / grading / attribution tag, and a super-enlarged portion of a part of the coin that makes it unique (e.g. die flaw, unusual toning, spot, scratch, etc). This photograph would accompany the coin when selling and provide the same kind of enhanced value that slabbing does.

2. A slabbed photo service

Instead of slabbing the coin, CGS could slab a really good photo (obverse and reverse), with the proviso that the slab used would be markedly different from those used for slabbing coins, e.g. it would be very much thinner. Likewise, this slabbed photo would accompany the coin when selling, add value, etc.

Stephen Lockett emailed back and said he would put my suggestion to the CGS directors responsible. At this stage, I'd like some feedback from you guys. If, like me, you keep your coins in a cabinet and don't want to see them slabbed, would you welcome either of these alternative methods of 'adding value' to your collection? I've already indicated that I would, but obviously they will not introduce a new service for just one person. I did say that 'serious collectors' (you guys!) were a group that I felt sure that CGS would "like to embrace", but that with slabbing, this wasn't going to happen.

Personally I don't like slabbed coins, for the simple reason that I like to handle the coin itself, even if only by the edges. Also, if all your coins were slabbed, they would take up an inordinate amount of space.

I do, however, quite like the idea of a "slabbed photo". Something with a CGS internet site catalogue number/date catalogued, to verify the coin concerned, with a unique hard copy matching certificate number and date, issued to the owner. But it would obviously have to be a damn good photo, and as you say, include a part of the coin that is unique. It's a pity that internet high definition isn't more widely available.

Let's hope that CGS start to diversify their services as per your suggestion, Peck. Well done

[scott 144]

or they could do something like those plastic capsules and put the grade etc on the side. that would save the space problem. or a removable card

[Red Riley 2]

The only possible flaw I can think of is that a slabbed photograph is a record at one point in time only. Whereas a slabbed coin which remains slabbed can only deteriorate through chemical action with its environment, all manner of things can happen between the slabbed photograph being taken and the 'naked' coin which has been sloshing around in a collection, being sold (the only point at which the photograph would be used) - perhaps the most obvious being 'cabinet friction', it may also pick up fingerprints etc. I can see where you are coming from on this, and I think it would be largely acceptable to us collectors, but may be viewed with suspicion by the dreaded investor.

[AardHawk 73]

Come on guys! Don't be shy. All I'm asking is your opinion. What do you think of these two proposed alternatives to slabbing? If such an alternative was introduced, would you consider using it? (NO commitment!)

OK you asked for it, so here it is. Why on earth would any hobby collector want someone else to tell them, that they are a very clever person, to have bought a particular coin/clock/car etc. Slabbing/grading is just a scam. Its just a group of people developing a market in tulip bulbs. It serves no useful purpose other than to the person doing the grading. It may add value, but I don't want 'value' added to my hobby. I want to keep it within reach.

[Rob 3,152]

I like my coins to be available for research. All that goes out the window when you can no longer check for over cut lettering, traces of an underlying coin or even check whether the edge is correct. As for weighing it to compare with a known coin's weight - forget it. The idea of a slabbed photo is a non starter for the reasons outlined by Red Riley.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Rob

[Peckris 579]

OK you asked for it, so here it is. Why on earth would any hobby collector want someone else to tell them, that they are a very clever person, to have bought a particular coin/clock/car etc. Slabbing/grading is just a scam. Its just a group of people developing a market in tulip bulbs. It serves no useful purpose other than to the person doing the grading. It may add value, but I don't want 'value' added to my hobby. I want to keep it within reach.

My ONLY reason to get a coin graded by the likes of CGS would be to add considerable value to it (a mere 10% wouldn't do it for me, but it does seem that the graded high quality coins seem to double in prices realised, and I cannot ignore that). Apart from that, I agree with you - after many many years as a collector and quite a few as a dealer, I don't need anyone to tell me what a coin's grade is, nor how appealing it is.

I like my coins to be available for research. All that goes out the window when you can no longer check for over cut lettering, traces of an underlying coin or even check whether the edge is correct. As for weighing it to compare with a known coin's weight - forget it. The idea of a slabbed photo is a non starter for the reasons outlined by Red Riley.

I don't think coins change so very much, especially not if they are looked after carefully. As for those who are only interested in a quick buck, the coin won't be in their possession long enough to alter its appearance methinks ... a few truths :

(i) those interested in grading to sell will ensure the coin and photo match as closely as possible (the photo would have to be of superb quality of course)

(ii) those who keep hold of their coins but don't look after them well wouldn't be buying the kind of coins we are discussing, and probably wouldn't pay the kind of fees involved either. Let's face it, only serious collectors will pay out £10 minimum for this kind of service.

(iii) the whole point of slabbed photos mean that the coin DOES remain free to be inspected for research - that's what I'm saying, how can we keep coins out of slabs

And if slabbing a photo isn't a starter, then a good printed certificate (suggestion 1) might be better? As long as such a certificate featured photos of course. Then the dreaded slab could be avoided altogether.

----------------------------------

It does seem a shame that slabbers enjoy such a markedly higher resale value than non-slabbers. Perhaps we should hope it is just a fad, like the encapsulated coins of the late 60s. Or maybe we should set up a high quality grading service of our own? With lower fees and no slabs!

Edited October 19, 2009 by Peckris

[HistoricCoinage 146]

If such an alternative was introduced, would you consider using it?

No.

[Coppers 58]

It does seem a shame that slabbers enjoy such a markedly higher resale value than non-slabbers. Perhaps we should hope it is just a fad, like the encapsulated coins of the late 60s. Or maybe we should set up a high quality grading service of our own? With lower fees and no slabs!

Slabbed coins may enjoy a markedly higher resale value in the US, but I do not believe that is the case in the UK and in fact the opposite may be true.

[1949threepence 3,367]

I don't think coins change so very much, especially not if they are looked after carefully.

Well, by definition, serious collectors are going to look after their coins. I doubt they would be any different from the photo at the point of re-sale.

Agreed that there is the possibility of a later fingerprint appearing though.

I can see the attraction of the type of servicce you suggest, Peck. But I suspect the reaction so far would be typical of that prevailing throughout the numismatic community. So I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon, if ever.

[Rob 3,152]

It does seem a shame that slabbers enjoy such a markedly higher resale value than non-slabbers. Perhaps we should hope it is just a fad, like the encapsulated coins of the late 60s. Or maybe we should set up a high quality grading service of our own? With lower fees and no slabs!

Slabbed coins may enjoy a markedly higher resale value in the US, but I do not believe that is the case in the UK and in fact the opposite may be true.

I always knock a bit off a slabbed coin if I am buying it for the collection because you don't know what the edge is going to be like when extracted. I have a few pieces that had edge defects hidden by the holder so now err on the side of caution. If the slab is for resale then that is a different matter because the risk of a dodgy edge is passed to the purchaser.

[1949threepence 3,367]

Stephen Lockett emailed back and said he would put my suggestion to the CGS directors responsible. At this stage, I'd like some feedback from you guys. If, like me, you keep your coins in a cabinet and don't want to see them slabbed, would you welcome either of these alternative methods of 'adding value' to your collection? I've already indicated that I would, but obviously they will not introduce a new service for just one person. I did say that 'serious collectors' (you guys!) were a group that I felt sure that CGS would "like to embrace", but that with slabbing, this wasn't going to happen.

Peck, do let us know what response you get. It'll be interesting to know what they have to say about the issue.