2 simple questions Coin related of course

[azda 979]

I was watching a coin for several months that a dealer had on his website, being considerably new to collecting i had purchased the 2009 edition of spink, the coin in question was a 1817 halfcrown S/I in pense, in spink it stated extremely rare and no corresponding value to it.

I purchased this years Spink book only to find that the coin in question now has a valve for the grades. How can a coin which is quoted as being extremely rare now become just another coin from 1 year to the next? Have they suddenly found several thousand lol?

My next question is about the Spink book itself, is this book the bible of the coin world, if not then what would you recommend?

[Rob 3,152]

I was watching a coin for several months that a dealer had on his website, being considerably new to collecting i had purchased the 2009 edition of spink, the coin in question was a 1817 halfcrown S/I in pense, in spink it stated extremely rare and no corresponding value to it.

I purchased this years Spink book only to find that the coin in question now has a valve for the grades. How can a coin which is quoted as being extremely rare now become just another coin from 1 year to the next? Have they suddenly found several thousand lol?

My next question is about the Spink book itself, is this book the bible of the coin world, if not then what would you recommend?

This could take a long time to answer.

The S/I is only one of many varieties that were not listed in Spink. Coins of England is really just a wide ranging selection of guide prices for all the recognised currency types with a few patterns, proofs and varieties added to the list (and some deleted) depending on the available space and as and when they pass through salerooms. Extremely rare historically meant that none had been to auction in recent times or that they had a recognised rarity based on specialised publications such as Peck or ESC, though this must be set against the fact that Spink also quote prices for some pieces which are not available because the only known piece is in a museum. To produce a publication covering all varieties would be unwieldy, horrendously expensive and consequently would not appeal to many collectors. Updating it on a regular basis would be a nightmare too. Most people collect either a wide range of material in lower grades or a specialise in a series - say bronze pennies for example, but with a higher average grade. If you collect coins from across the globe then you would probably look at Krause & Mischler (a US publication) for the widest coverage, but if you only collect milled silver then Spink and ESC backed up by Davies would be more appropriate. There are many varieties that haven't been recorded in the standard references which means that you need to do your own research using daa from past sales and dealers' lists if you want to establish a list of vaguely accurate rarities for your chosen field.

You shouldn't take the values in Spink, CCGB or any other price list as gospel. some are too high, some are too low and some about right. No two coins are identical either, and so despite being in the same nominal grade they could command wildly differing prices. It is not necessarily a good thing to reject an apparently overpriced coin. Sometimes there is a very good reason for it, so you need to do your own research and establish what is out there in the market place and how much they typically sell for. If you collect both hammered and milled, then Spink's tome is the only realistic publication, but even then you come up against the problem that the price given is only really applicable to the commonest variety of the type. What looks like a £200 coin could easily sell for £2K if it is a sought after rare variety. Recent bidding lunacy in the bronze penny department bears witness to this as noted on other threads.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Rob

[azda 979]

Thanks for the detailed reply Rob, interesting reading

[Peckris 579]

My next question is about the Spink book itself, is this book the bible of the coin world, if not then what would you recommend?

The answer is "yes" and "no"

"Yes" in that most dealers adjust their SELLING prices by it, and in that most insurance companies make payouts based on its values

"No" for the reasons Rob has set out. There is NO fully accurate price guide, for one very obvious reason : there is no uniform coin for which a price can be given (they all vary, even Unc), there isn't one location for which all prices hold true, there isn't one auction that realises a standard set of prices for every lot, at every sale. The market for a particular coin is what the market will bear at that precise moment. Spink lists a BU 1948 penny at ... what? ... £6? £8? Whatever, it's totally unrealistic, they are common as anything, you should be able to get one for £4, £3 or even less. Quick rule of thumb : the commoner the coin, the more likely it is to be overpriced in Spink or any other book. The rarer the coin, the more likely to be undervalued.

Spink is a good enough book, but the CCGB series (see panel above) lists more varieties and if your interest is in coins from 1797 onwards, costs about a quarter of the price.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Peckris

[scott 144]

yea. CCGB is great for post 197.. but do pick up a coin yearbook if you are new, as it covers basically everything you need to know, and covers all the way from early hammered, world mintmarks, demomantions, cleaning/storage and you then have 2 guides, so you get a rough idea.

[azda 979]

Was looking for the 2010 ebook but can't see it, is it out yet? Does Chris have it avaliable for download?

[Rob 3,152]

The important thing is not to let the tail wag the dog. All price guides are just that. None are accurate. Do your own homework, learn to grade accurately and see what a specific variety is selling for in a particular grade. Although there is no substitute for seeing a coin in the hand, compare the images with the realised prices at auction, or the price in a dealer's tray and you will build up an appreciation of the going rate for a specific coin. At the level of Peckris' 1948 penny, the difference between an underpriced and overpriced item is no more than the cost of a cup of coffee and so if you overpay you are unlikely to go hungry that night. Certainly no damage will be done. But when you have no feeling for the coins themselves or the market you can get stung badly. That is why so many people pay over the odds on ebay for example. They buy the description and not the coin. Very few listings say this coin is crap or low grade, but an awful lot call crap - superb. If you are looking for a superb example, then this piece of superb crap is the ideal coin for you - sucker. As always, caveat emptor.

As a beginner, you are probably better off concentrating on getting it right with the basic types. You certainly should not make a financial mistake at the same level as for a rare variety as there are more examples available to build up your chosen database. In this instance you may thus benefit from the occasional undetected rarity purchased for the price of a basic example. You also have to consider that there are fewer collectors of most rare varieties because there are insufficient examples to go around, so they are less liquid. A coin of which there are 3 known but only 2 collectors is therefore common.

[azda 979]

Just out of curiosity, are dealers willing to barter with a customer, if so what sort of margin could one expect, the best i've managed so far is around 30 euros, but i suppose anything off the price is good to. Some of the higher grades crowns and halfcrowns i'd like to buy, but we're talking 400 euros for a crown George III

[Rob 3,152]

Only to a degree. The prices of the scarcer types are dictated by what dealers can buy for. For these there isn't likely to be much to play with, so don't expect consistency in any negotiated discount. This is why you need to have an appreciation of the relative rarities. Prices at the top end are going off scale simply because of the material shortage. For popular but rare items this is filtering down the grades. In contrast, a 1967 penny will for ever be well nigh impossible to sell.

[Peckris 579]

Just out of curiosity, are dealers willing to barter with a customer, if so what sort of margin could one expect, the best i've managed so far is around 30 euros, but i suppose anything off the price is good to. Some of the higher grades crowns and halfcrowns i'd like to buy, but we're talking 400 euros for a crown George III

Any dealer will accept an offer, but it's more likely with (1) higher value coins or (2) coins they aren't shifting. And the more you spend with them, the more they will likely offer you a discount. Ironically, they may also offer you a discount on their 50p £1 £2 £5 trays - the markup on the contents of those is eye-watering so you can often get money off.