Fake or Rare Variety

[azda 979]

I thought i'd better post this in the relevant place. It started in the (Lots of British coin related discussions, coin aquisition of the week)

I posted a picture of the new coin i got yesterday, George III 1818 Halfcrown, after looking at it this morning the die axis did not match and posted in the same topic this morning that it was a fake, bought from ebay.

I think it was Gary D who then said "just because the die axis doesn't match doesn't mean it's fake, it could be a rare variety"

I would love to think that it is a rare type, but my luck doesn't stretch that far, so could any of you enlighten me, are there any wrong die axis types, the head and the crown are at opposite ends on this one, hence my thought it being a fake.

The obv and rev pixs are in the post stated above

[azda 979]

Spoke to Chris about this, he thinks it might be a very good contempary fake, anyone else with their thoughts, pix are in the other thread. It weighs 13.9gms

Edited January 16, 2010 by azda

[Red Riley 2]

Spoke to Chris about this, he thinks it might be a very good contempary fake, anyone else with their thoughts, pix are in the other thread. It weighs 13.9gms

It would have to be a very good fake. In my view (although I wouldn't want to contradict Chris!) modern fakes emenating from China are far more believable than those produced contemporaneous with the coin, so if it's a fake I would go modern.

[Chris Perkins 228]

Post the pics in this thread azda (no one in the world can be bothered to cross reference things these days)

Look at the dots between the words on the garter. Weakly struck. And the horizontal and vertical 'shading' in the shield and garter is also wishy-washy in places. And of course there's the die axis being wrong, which of course could be an error. If it is a fake, it's a very good one and if comtemporary to 1818 then it's the best fake I've seen. Tough one that. I have an 1819 on the website and the dots and lines are very strong.

[azda 979]

Front side

[azda 979]

reverse view

[Red Riley 2]

Post the pics in this thread azda (no one in the world can be bothered to cross reference things these days)

Look at the dots between the words on the garter. Weakly struck. And the horizontal and vertical 'shading' in the shield and garter is also wishy-washy in places. And of course there's the die axis being wrong, which of course could be an error. If it is a fake, it's a very good one and if comtemporary to 1818 then it's the best fake I've seen. Tough one that. I have an 1819 on the website and the dots and lines are very strong.

I've just checked 3 or 4 photos of these coins plus one genuine example, and the strength of the dots does seem to vary. I hope I'm not teaching Grandma to suck eggs, but the die axis should be as per modern coins and not 180 deg. to each other. The pre-Victorian shields were notorious for the dies blocking up and some were very vague indeed.

[Peckris 579]

To repeat what I said in the other post :

1) If a modern fake, then the faker would have to be extremely incompetent to get the die axis out by 180º, particularly as they must have an original to work from. Also, where's the gain in faking a VF halfcrown from a common series? It's hardly a money spinner, possibly wouldn't repay the cost of the investment.

2) If a contemporary fake, then why in silver? The method of the time was silver-washed copper, which this clearly isn't.

I think this raises more questions than it answers.

[Chris Perkins 228]

What if it's actually got all it's thin silver layer intact? Must be possible.

Or, the modern theory is also entirely plausible because dies probably get made and then go to some other Chinaman to strike. He can't possibly know the alignments for all coins and may have just guessed based on his knowledge of US coins which are forged a lot and mostly have 180 alignment.

[azda 979]

What we should be asking is, has anyone ever heard of a 180 degree die error, surely if there was one there would be more and would be recorded by now?

Excuse my cynisism but am still annoyed that i believe i bought a fake, although the seller only live 10 mins from me and have already emailed him about the coin, so i won't be out of pocket either way.

I think i'll take it to a numismatic in the morning and see what he says.

[Chris Perkins 228]

You mean 'Numismatist' azda.

I'm not so sure that one of those in Germany would be much help.

If it were mine, I'd keep in and take a chance that it's either a very good quality contemp, or a genuine error.

[azda 979]

You mean 'Numismatist' azda.

I'm not so sure that one of those in Germany would be much help.

If it were mine, I'd keep in and take a chance that it's either a very good quality contemp, or a genuine error.

Yeah thats what i meant lol. Or perhaps i could go down the Royal Mint route as you suggested yesterday, that way i'd get a definate yes or no, you'd maybe have to send me details of how i go about that.

[Gary D 76]

What we should be asking is, has anyone ever heard of a 180 degree die error, surely if there was one there would be more and would be recorded by now?

Excuse my cynisism but am still annoyed that i believe i bought a fake, although the seller only live 10 mins from me and have already emailed him about the coin, so i won't be out of pocket either way.

I think i'll take it to a numismatic in the morning and see what he says.

Although a completely different era the 1943 english shilling is recorded by Davies to exist with a 180 deg rotation and I have a 1948 penny with a rotation of just under 180 deg.

Gary

[azda 979]

What we should be asking is, has anyone ever heard of a 180 degree die error, surely if there was one there would be more and would be recorded by now?

Excuse my cynisism but am still annoyed that i believe i bought a fake, although the seller only live 10 mins from me and have already emailed him about the coin, so i won't be out of pocket either way.

I think i'll take it to a numismatic in the morning and see what he says.

Although a completely different era the 1943 english shilling is recorded by Davies to exist with a 180 deg rotation and I have a 1948 penny with a rotation of just under 180 deg.

Gary

I understand what you're saying Gary, the reason i think it's fake is that the coin is 1818, yours is 1943 and recorded, this is 125 years older and if genuine, unrecorded, hence my problem at thinking it could be an unrecorded error, but i'm strolling along with the theory in the back of my head for now, also i think Chris checked Davies yesterday and didn't see anything

Edited January 17, 2010 by azda

[Red Riley 2]

Also, where's the gain in faking a VF halfcrown from a common series? It's hardly a money spinner, possibly wouldn't repay the cost of the investment.

I have seen attested modern fakes of fairly common coins in mid-grade condition. A coin which is worth £50 or so, is far less likely to raise suspicion and be easier to sell than an FDC Gothic, but the workmanship is still spot on. If the annual wage you can get at the local factory is only £500 a year, then you don't have to produce many coins to exceed that figure, and the secret of being a succesful criminal (so they tell me!) is not to be too greedy. Being a numiswotsit is dashed hard these days.

The weight you quote is close to that of a genuine coin (13.9g as opposed to 14.1), but I'm not sure whether it's within normal tolerance. Perhaps Chris or someone with more knowledge than me could tell us.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Red Riley

[azda 979]

The other reason i'm sceptical about it being an unrecorded error is that it's not like there's a dot missing here or an E/F or something, we're talking about a whole die axis, which to me is quite a huge error, like for instance the 20p dating errors, its not a minute error where it was hard to detect.

[Gary D 76]

Also, where's the gain in faking a VF halfcrown from a common series? It's hardly a money spinner, possibly wouldn't repay the cost of the investment.

I have seen attested modern fakes of fairly common coins in mid-grade condition. A coin which is worth £50 or so, is far less likely to raise suspicion and be easier to sell than an FDC Gothic, but the workmanship is still spot on. If the annual wage you can get at the local factory is only £500 a year, then you don't have to produce many coins to exceed that figure, and the secret of being a succesful criminal (so they tell me!) is not to be too greedy. Being a numiswotsit is dashed hard these days.

The weight you quote is close to that of a genuine coin (13.9g as opposed to 14.1), but I'm not sure whether it's within normal tolerance. Perhaps Chris or someone with more knowledge than me could tell us.

I had a fake 1905 halfcrown in GF-VF, I also have one, fake that is, in about EF. There is a fake UNC on ebay at the moment with a BIN of £6000. I think these are all from the batch that came out of Turkey about 20-30 years ago.

[Rob 3,152]

Has anyone seen or does anyone know what the profile is for the location mechanism when fixing the dies in place. If square, then you could get die axis errors of 90 degrees as well as being struck en coin or en medaille. If triangular then it could be 120 degrees out either way, if hexagonal etc. I know that square profiles have been used in the past because this shilling in my gallery has transposed Irish & French shields. The die was originally cut with the shields reversed. The person who located it in the milling equipment obviously was accustomed to aligning the French arms with the top of the obvese die. As a result, all of the other three shields are in the wrong position and the date is at 9 o'clock. This outcome is only compatible with a profile having multiples of 4 faces, unless someone else can come up with a flaw in the argument.

There are many other exampes of upright and inverted features in addition to those already noted. The 1839 proofs are both, the collar on the FOB crown can be inverted or upright, the inverted die axis 1841 1/2d etc.

The gist of this is that it would be possible to strike coins with either die axis either by accident or design and so I don't think you can dismiss this unless you can find a second identical piece with similar marks that you wouldn't find on an as struck coin, or a metal analysis which showed a composition that was clearly to the wrong standard. I haven't seen anything obviously wrong in the images. Another thing in its favour is the double cut I in GRATIA. This is the sort of feature that would get fuzzy if it were from a cast.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Rob

[azda 979]

We're definately asking more questions than we're answering about this coin. So lets ask this question. I can take this coin back tomorrow and get my €80 back for it, or i could keep it, maybe get it professionally looked into and at the end of it all i could have the fake i thought it was or have a 1 off or unrecorded error.

As a collector i want to follow through and hopefully find out that it could well be a piece of history, on the other hand, being unemployed right now the €80 would be spent on something else.

If i sent it off to the Royal Mint or some other professional body, will it cost me money for them to check it out and give me the final diagnosis?

[azda 979]

I did see that to Rob, but did you also notice the double cut in the 1st 1 in the date?

[Rob 3,152]

I did see that to Rob, but did you also notice the double cut in the 1st 1 in the date?

There's nothing unusual about these features. Recutting legends has always been used to extend the life of the dies, or perhaps it wasn't cut cleanly in the first place..

[Gary D 76]

We're definately asking more questions than we're answering about this coin. So lets ask this question. I can take this coin back tomorrow and get my €80 back for it, or i could keep it, maybe get it professionally looked into and at the end of it all i could have the fake i thought it was or have a 1 off or unrecorded error.

As a collector i want to follow through and hopefully find out that it could well be a piece of history, on the other hand, being unemployed right now the €80 would be spent on something else.

If i sent it off to the Royal Mint or some other professional body, will it cost me money for them to check it out and give me the final diagnosis?

There is no cost when sending coins to the royal mint. The big problem is it would be several week or months before you heard anything from them. Also I'm not sure what the mint would tell you. I think for them to be interested enough to go as far as metal analysis etc it would need to be very special, 1952 2/6, 1933 1d etc. My limited experience with the mint only resulted in a very bland and non-comittal letter.

[Rob 3,152]

There is no cost when sending coins to the royal mint. The big problem is it would be several week or months before you heard anything from them. Also I'm not sure what the mint would tell you. I think for them to be interested enough to go as far as metal analysis etc it would need to be very special, 1952 2/6, 1933 1d etc. My limited experience with the mint only resulted in a very bland and non-comittal letter.

That is probably because they get innundated with requests from people like the **** who listed the corroded lump of metal,- sorry-1952 Elizabeth II brass threepence on eBay. If I received a request like that, I would have difficulty in not calling a spade, a spade.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Rob

[Peckris 579]

Also, where's the gain in faking a VF halfcrown from a common series? It's hardly a money spinner, possibly wouldn't repay the cost of the investment.

I have seen attested modern fakes of fairly common coins in mid-grade condition. A coin which is worth £50 or so, is far less likely to raise suspicion and be easier to sell than an FDC Gothic, but the workmanship is still spot on. If the annual wage you can get at the local factory is only £500 a year, then you don't have to produce many coins to exceed that figure, and the secret of being a succesful criminal (so they tell me!) is not to be too greedy. Being a numiswotsit is dashed hard these days.

I had a fake 1905 halfcrown in GF-VF, I also have one, fake that is, in about EF. There is a fake UNC on ebay at the moment with a BIN of £6000. I think these are all from the batch that came out of Turkey about 20-30 years ago.

Yes, but low grade fakes of 1905 halfcrowns make much more sense, as they are rare(ish) and fetch high prices.

[Sergy 0]

Hello!

Mine:

Look at the lions' tails - on your coin: the vertical lines over them, not as mine.