Proof Coins

[choolie 0]

Hi there I have started collecting coins without knowing too much about it. So here are some questions that have arisen for me.

1. I understand that proof coins are particularly well struck high quality examples of the coin. But tell me is it possible to tell whether a coin is a Proof just by examining it. I have seen some dealers lists saying "possible Proof" so in order to guarantee that it is a proof would you need some provenance or documentation?

2. What is the story behind the 1804 dollar. I collect crowns and this one is always listed with the crowns. Also what is this I see about octagonal countermars and spanishe reales can someone fill me in?

3. Coin varieties what is all this LXI LXII, LXIV etc. To what is this referring. I currently just go by type of coin and date, but hey I am a beginner.

I would be most grateful if you could enlighten me.

[Rob 3,152]

Hi there I have started collecting coins without knowing too much about it. So here are some questions that have arisen for me.

1. I understand that proof coins are particularly well struck high quality examples of the coin. But tell me is it possible to tell whether a coin is a Proof just by examining it. I have seen some dealers lists saying "possible Proof" so in order to guarantee that it is a proof would you need some provenance or documentation?

2. What is the story behind the 1804 dollar. I collect crowns and this one is always listed with the crowns. Also what is this I see about octagonal countermars and spanishe reales can someone fill me in?

3. Coin varieties what is all this LXI LXII, LXIV etc. To what is this referring. I currently just go by type of coin and date, but hey I am a beginner.

I would be most grateful if you could enlighten me.

Hi Choolie,

1. You are correct in your assumption that they are high quality examples and will typically have mirror like fields, though some e.g. 1902 proofs were struck with a matt finish. The legend is typically more angular than a currency piece, though not necessarily so and edge milling tends to be sharper than that found on a regular circulated piece. They will frequently have wider rims and a sharp right angle at the edge. Some or all of these features will apply depending on the coin in question. If someone says possible proof then ignore it. If you can't tell, it isn't. And just because it has polished fields doesn't mean it is a proof. This forum gets asked the question 'proof or not?' at least once a month. Some 'proofs' have features that are not found on currency coins and so they are strictly patterns which is the term used for proofs with a design that was never adopted for the currency issues.

2. Around the late 1790's there was a desperate shortage of silver in Britain due to the demands of the Napoleonic Wars. Consequently the price of silver fluctuated wildly and little coin was struck. The 1804 five shilling dollar was struck on captured Spanish 8 reales coins and superseded the countermarked 8 reales which were first issued in 1797 current for 4/9d. The oval countermark used was a goldsmiths mark current for stamping plate at the time in question. Counterfeits quickly followed and in 1800 the octagonal countermark was introduced using the bust punch from the maundy penny. It was initially current for 5/6d as the price of silver had risen to this value. The countermarked pieces were again superseded in 1804 by the 5/- dollar which as it says was current for 5/-. These were struck for a number of years by Matthew Boulton's Soho mint, but all were dated 1804. Sometimes you can see details from the original coin and dates up to 1811 have been noted, so they must have been struck up to this time. Some of the dies were acquired by Taylor at the Soho Mint sale in 1850 and restrikes were made using the original dies, though these are not too common. There are also a few examples known of countermarked French and US coins besides the much more common Spanish and Spanish American issues.

Countermarked 4 reales also exist, but although they would be nominally current for a half crown there is no documented evidence for a proclamation giving them legal tender status.

3. LXI, LXII etc refer to the regnal date i.e. the LXI refers to the 61st year of the reign, LXII the 62nd etc. This is found on the edge of the last crown issue dated 1818-20 as part of the legend DECUS ET TUTAMEN ANNO REGNI etc. Some patterns also exist from earlier years with different edge readings, but you need not concern yourself with these as they are rarely encountered.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Rob

[Peckris 579]

Hi there I have started collecting coins without knowing too much about it. So here are some questions that have arisen for me.

1. I understand that proof coins are particularly well struck high quality examples of the coin. But tell me is it possible to tell whether a coin is a Proof just by examining it. I have seen some dealers lists saying "possible Proof" so in order to guarantee that it is a proof would you need some provenance or documentation?

2. What is the story behind the 1804 dollar. I collect crowns and this one is always listed with the crowns. Also what is this I see about octagonal countermars and spanishe reales can someone fill me in?

3. Coin varieties what is all this LXI LXII, LXIV etc. To what is this referring. I currently just go by type of coin and date, but hey I am a beginner.

I would be most grateful if you could enlighten me.

Rob's answered this pretty fully.

I'd only add to the 'Proof' answer : the rim edges can often be really sharp on a proof, sometimes so sharp you can feel it.

'Provenance' generally comes into play if you bought the coin from a big-time dealer, or at a leading sale - those factors will usually be enough to satisfy most collectors. However, a dealer who optimistically describes a "possible proof" you should treat at face value - i.e. not worth the paper it won't be written on.

It is also worth pointing out that the Americans have a much more sophisticated attitude to the term "prooflike" than we Brits do. Over there, values for "prooflike" early strikes will command stratospherically higher prices than a mere Unc specimen. So don't regard a "prooflike" non-proof as being unworthy - it may not be a proof, but it will be an attractive coin and should therefore command a premium, even over here.

[choolie 0]

Thank you rob and peck for those comprehensive answers. that helps with my education.