Interesting Victorian penny 1887 with letters at left of date

[Voynov_BG 3]

Hi, friends,

first - sorry for my english, I am from east Europe and work with online translater.

This coin received as purchase bulk lot old (mostly victorian) coins on May 2009, from UK ebay.

Coin looks 100% authentic to me, maybe never cleaned, and it is 8.6 grams/ 31 mm approx. similar to another worn pennies in my house.

There is interesting (maybe) letters at left of date, I think roman "I" and "V", sized approx. 0.35 and 1.5 mm.

What do you think about this coin? All comments are wellcome.

[Peckris 579]

Hi, friends,

first - sorry for my english, I am from east Europe and work with online translater.

This coin received as purchase bulk lot old (mostly victorian) coins on May 2009, from UK ebay.

Coin looks 100% authentic to me, maybe never cleaned, and it is 8.6 grams/ 31 mm approx. similar to another worn pennies in my house.

There is interesting (maybe) letters at left of date, I think roman "I" and "V", sized approx. 0.35 and 1.5 mm.

What do you think about this coin? All comments are wellcome.

Hi Voynov - Welcome to the forums

Personally, I don't see it? Maybe the 'I'- if it was enlarged real big. But the 'V' just looks like a horizontal gouge, I don't see the downstrokes at all?

[Voynov_BG 3]

Hi,

coin is very worn really but this picture is first image from May 2009 - dirty coin as received. I think that "V" is guaranteed but very worn and hardly noticeable with the naked eye. Please see first image:

[Peckris 579]

Hi,

coin is very worn really but this picture is first image from May 2009 - dirty coin as received. I think that "V" is guaranteed but very worn and hardly noticeable with the naked eye. Please see first image:

You're right! It looks quite clear on those darker pictures. And it also looks raised not incuse. Most odd, I never heard of anything like that before. See what the other guys here say, but I admit, it looks intriguing.

[azda 979]

You can certainly see it in the 2nd image, the first image i couldn't see it at all.

[Voynov_BG 3]

You can certainly see it in the 2nd image, the first image i couldn't see it at all.

Hi again in this topic, I want to add new picture only, from today, it is good image but if I found camera over 4-5 MP will add another picture...

[Voynov_BG 3]

You can certainly see it in the 2nd image, the first image i couldn't see it at all.

Hi again in this topic, I want to add new picture only, from today, it is good image but if I found camera over 4-5 MP will add another picture...

Hi,

really sorry for the spam but need help.

I know that this is maybe fantasy, but please help me - when first used pound sign "₤" - Queen Victoria? after or before? Please if anyone can say whether in 1887 he already enjoyed.

This is a new picture from my new camera made with a magnifying glass, and now I think that the left is not the symbol "I", but something else...

[Peckris 579]

Hi,

really sorry for the spam but need help.

I know that this is maybe fantasy, but please help me - when first used pound sign "₤" - Queen Victoria? after or before? Please if anyone can say whether in 1887 he already enjoyed.

This is a new picture from my new camera made with a magnifying glass, and now I think that the left is not the symbol "I", but something else...

I don't know when the £ sign first came in, but it was certainly long before Victoria.

[Voynov_BG 3]

Hi,

really sorry for the spam but need help.

I know that this is maybe fantasy, but please help me - when first used pound sign "₤" - Queen Victoria? after or before? Please if anyone can say whether in 1887 he already enjoyed.

This is a new picture from my new camera made with a magnifying glass, and now I think that the left is not the symbol "I", but something else...

I don't know when the £ sign first came in, but it was certainly long before Victoria.

Thank you!

[Voynov_BG 3]

Hi again,

only want to say that after expertise, this week I have certificate from a great name in numismatics - Dr. Ilya Prokopov.

I don`t speak english but approx. translation of the text is this:

~

Subject Expertise:

Copper coin 1 penny, issue 1887.

Weight: 8.540 grams.

Size: Standard

Experts should answer the following questions:

It is an authentic coin 1 penny 1887?

Are authentic anomalies in the left of the date below line?

Of what nature are those anomalies?

Expert Opinion:

After investigation of the coin with optical zoom of 30 times and view the screen with high resolution and maximum zoom found the following:

1. Coin is authentic with clear signs of continued use.

2. Coin is not cleaned with chemical, electrochemical or mechanical means and its surface has not undergone changes that would rise to both anomalies.

3. The sign which we call "an anomaly 1" is authentic and is applied at the time the coin is produced. Evidence for this is patina, which has the same thickness and structure as is on the rest of the coin.

4. "Anomaly 1” with an approximate height of 0.3-0.4 mm in the lower left of the coin, below the line, located on the upper level of the figures" 1887 "is an additional, hand made sign with a special tool made in the negative.

5. Because of wear of the coin, and that sign is marked as "positive" on a coin, making it deleted part of the original image. Depending on the viewing angle could be: Latin tilted left (number or letter) "I"; Latin (number or letter) "V". There may be other options, but they are unlikely.

6. "Anomaly 2", which is located between "anomaly 1" and the number" 1 "of the year is a sign of old image. We believe that in the lowest part of the relief is left from the image of the old coin. Anomaly looks Latin (number or letter) "V" with a height of about 1.5 mm.

7. "Anomaly 2" is difficult to comment without special equipment because of damage inflicted at the top of the letter/number - it is hollow with an irregular shape and rough edges.

"Anomaly 1" could be interpreted as a further mark of the coin master after inspection, or certification for verification that series is completed.

.

.

.

.

.

More information about Dr. Ilya Prokopov:

Dr. Ilya Prokopov

1. Lecturer and examiner in the courses for Experts and authenticators in numismatics and archaeology carried out in Bulgaria in the period 1993-2004.

2. Expert in law cases in the field of numismatics and archeology.

3. Expert in investigation law cases concerning crimes in the field of numismatics and archeology such as illegal export of items.

4. Member of expert committees for verification of state and public collections

5. Lecturer in various universities and qualification schools in the field of the ancient numismatics, history of money and economic relations in the ancient times.

PARTICIPATIONS

1. The Xth International Congress of Numismatics - London, September 1986

2. Ist International Symposium "Balkannumi"- Varna, October 1988

3. The XIth International Congress of Numismatics - Brussels, September 1991

4. Ist International Symposium "Dobrudja"-Dobric, October 1993

5. The XIIth International Congress of Numismatics - Berlin, September 1997

6. Ist International Symposium "Pistiros and Thasos" - September 1998

7. The XIIIth International Congress of Numismatics - Madrid, September 2003

And several professional meetings in Germany, Greece, Japan, UK, USA, Switzerland

LIST OF PUBLICATIONS

1. Prokopov, I. Coin Hoard from Tishanovo, district Kyustendil. In: Numizmatika, 1/1981, 27-33. /in Bulgarian with summary in French/.

2. Prokopov, I. Hoard of bronze coins of Maroneia II-I c.BC. In: Numizmatika, 4/1981, 14-20. /in Bulgarian with summary in French/.

3. Prokopov, I., Y. Yanev. Hoard of Venetian coins outskirts of village Granica, district Kyustendil. In: Numizmatika, 1/1982, 27-32. /in Bulgarian with summary in French/.

4. Prokopov, I. Aureus foure of emperor Probus. In: Numizmatika, 3/1982, 26-28. /in Bulgarian with summary in French /.

5. Prokopov, I. New coin of Pautalia. In: Numizmatika, 1/1983, 9-11. /in Bulgarian with summary in French /.

6. Prokopov, I. Tetradrachm of Perseus. In: Numizmatika, 4/1985, 3-5. /in Bulgarian with summary in French /.

7. Prokopov, I. About circulation of the silver coins with name of quaestor Aesillas in South-West Bulgarian lands and their dating. In: Numizmatika, 1/1985, 3 -11. /in Bulgarian with summary in French /.

8. Prokopov, I. The coins of ancient Pautalia as Historical source. In: Vol. "First numismatic symposium Pautalia83", Sofia, 1985,16-23. /in Bulgarian/.

9. Prokopov, I. Hoards of Macedonian coins in region of Upper and Middle Struma from the end of III to I c. BC. " Second numismatic symposium Pautalia 85", Kyustendil,1985, ..... /in Bulgarian/.

10. Yanev, Y., I. Prokopov. Hoard with silver coins from Kopilovci, district Kyustendil. In: Numizmatika, 2/1985, 25-29. /in Bulgarian with summary in French /.

11. Prokopov, I., D. Ivanov. Hoard of Thasian tetradrachms. In: Muzei i pametnici na kulturata, ÕÕVI, 4/1986, 48-51

12. Prokopov, I. Dispersed hoard with tetradrachmas of quaestor Aesillas. Vol. II "Numizmatika - Symposium on the problems of the ancient and medieval numismatics", Sofia, 1986, 11-15. /in Bulgarian/.

13. Prokopov. I. The circulation of bronze coins in South-Western Thrace from the end of the 3rd to the end of the 1st century B.C. - Proceedings of the 10th International Congress of Numismatics, London, 1986, 89-93.

14. Prokopov, I. Circulation of bronze coins of Phillip V and Perseus in South-West Bulgaria. In: Numizmatika, 3/1986, 5-20. /in Bulgarian with summary in French/

15. Prokopov, I. Hoard with tetradrachms of First Macedonian region from the fund of Historical museum in Shumen. In: Proceedings of the Historical Museum Kyustendil, Vol. I, 1989, 235-248. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/

16. Prokopov, I. Hoard with tetradrachms of Athens "New Style" and Thasos discovered outskirts Razlog. In: Proceedings of the Historical Museum Kyustendil, Vol. I, 1989, 249 - 268. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/

17. Prokopov, I., T. Kovaceva. Tetradrachms of "Thasian type" in the fund of Historical Museum Pleven. In: Proceedings of the Historical Museum Kyustendil, Vol. I, 1989, 307-322. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/.

18. Prokopov, I., D. Ivanov. The Coin Hoard from Novgrad, district Ruse, and some observations over tetradrachms of First Macedonian region. In: Proceedings of the Historical Museum Kyustendil, Vol. I, 1989, 269-306. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/

19. Prokopov, I., I. Bachvarov. Coin hoard from Popina, district Silistra. In: Numizmatika, ÕÕIV, 1/1990, 3-22. /in Bulgarian with summary in French/.

20. Prokopov, I., T. Kovaceva. Coin hoard from Ruptsi. In: Arheologia, vol.II, 1/1990, 37-43. /in Bulgarian with summary in French/.

21. Prokopov, I. Coin circulation in The Central Rhodopes region from the V c. BC to the VI c. AD. In: Vol. "Trakijskata kultura v Rodopite I gornite poreciya na Marica, Mesta i Struma", Smolyan, 1990, 56-63.

22. Prokopov, I. Coin hoard from village Bogolin, district Gotse Delcev. In: Proceedings of the Historical Museum Kyustendil, Vol. III, 1991, 69 -77. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/.

23. Prokopov, I. Numismatic Collection of Smolyan Museum V c.BC-VI c.AC. Sofia, 1991, 96 pp. /Bilingual - English and Bulgarian/.

24. Prokopov. I. Notes about the Character of Some Large-scale Coinages in the Thrace during IInd-Ist Centuries B.C. in: Proceedings of the Xlth International Numismatic Congress, Louvain-la-Neuve,1993, p.173-180, Pl. VIII-XII.

25. Callatay Fr.de and Prokopov. I. An overstrike of a Hellenistic Thetradrachm of Thasian type on Athens in the Popina Hoard ("IGCH 930").- Nomismatika Khronika,13,1994, p.37-39

26. Prokopov, I. The tetradrachms of First Macedonian region, Sofia 1994,175 pp. /Bilingual - English and Bulgarian/.

27. Callatay Fr.de and Prokopov. I. A Late Alexander of Mesembria Overstruck over Athens. Numismatic Circular, June 1994, CII, no. 5, p. 207.

28. Prokopov, I. Problems of some Roman coinages on the Balcans during I c. BC. In: Vol. "Nasledstvo", Proceedings of the Historical Museum in Veliko Tarnovo, 1994, 5-7.

29. Ignatov, P. and Prokopov. I. Representations of ships and sea symbols on the coins of Thracian sea societies (2nd - 3rd century AC). Thracia Pontica VI, 1, Sozopol, 1994, 115 - 118.

30. V.Tomov, A. Grigorov, V. Vasileva, V. Grigorova and I. Prokopov. Artificial Intelligence Program System for Recognition, Classification and Archiving Coins. In International Journal "Information,Theories & Applications", 1994, Vol. 2, N 3,3 - 8.

31. Prokopov. I. Again on the Kolyo Marinovo Coin Hoard.- Studia in Honorem Alexandri Fol, Thracia,11, Serdicae,1995, p.451- 454.

32. Callatay, Fr. de and Prokopov. I. The Boljarino Hoard (IGCH 975 - Near Plovdiv).- Revue belge deNumismatique, CXLI, Bruxelles, 1995, p.5-12, Pl. I -III.

33. Prokopov, Ilya: Imitations of Bronze Coins in Thracia during the Ist century B.C., in: Proceedings of the XII Internationaler Numizmatischer Kongress, Berlin 1997, 369-377.

34. Prokopov, I., P. Banov. Hoard with tetradrachms of Thasos and "Thasian type" discovered in Brestovets, district Pleven. In: Numizmatika i sphragistika, 4/1995- 1997, 52-72.

35. Dimitrov, D., I.Prokopov, B.Kolev. Modern forgeries of Greek and Roman coins. Sofia, 1997.

36. Kisiov, K., I. Prokopov and K. Dotchev. Numismatic riches of Archeological Museum - Plovdiv, Sofia 1998, 100 pp. /Bilingual - English and Bulgarian/.

37. Prokopov, I., K. Kojceva. Coins from II - I c. BC, in the Collection of Historical Museum in Gabrovo. In: Numizmatika i sphragistika, 5/1998, 45-55.

38. Prokopov, I. Problems of the Coin circulation in Thrace during II - I c. BC. In; Numizmatichni izsledvaniya 1/1998, 16-21.

39. Prokopov, Ilya ànd Dochka Vladimirova-Aladjova: On the problem of the Coin Circulation in Dobrudja during II-I c.B.C. in: Dobrudja,12/1995, "Numismatic and sphragistic contributions to Ancient and Medieval History of Dobrudja - International Symposium, Dobrich, 1993", Dobrithc, 1998, p. 51-56.

40. Prokopov, I. und M. Minkova, Die munzen des 2.-1. v. Chr. in der Sammlung des Historischen Museum von Stara Zagora.- in: Studia in Honorem E. Schonert-Geiss, Berlin, 1998, 565 -579, Taf. 580-586.

41. Prokopov, I., Dochka Vladimirova-Aladjova. Coin Collection of Historical Museum - Shumen: Coin and coin hoards II - I c. BC. In: Numizmatika i sphragistika, 2/1998, 13-66.

42. Prokopov, I. and Fr. de Callatay. Òhe late Hellenistic hoard from South-West Bulgaria (Area of Gotse Deltchev).- The Numismatic Chronicle 158 (1998), p. 228 - 236, Pl. 56 - 60.

43. Prokopov, I. Barbarian imitations of Macedonian bronze coins. In: Proceedings of the Historical Museum Kyustendil, Vol.V/2, 1998, 357 - 360. /in Bulgarian with summary in English /.

44. Prokopov, I., M. Minkova. Coins II-I c. BC. In the Collection of the Historical Museum - Stara Zagora. In: Arheologicheski i istoricheski prouchvaniya v Novozagorsko, Nova Zagora 1999, 158-169.

45. Domaradski, M., I. Prokopov, M.Andonova. Monuments of the Thracian culture along the upper Mesta - Stage of social and economic development. In: "Razkopki I prouchvaniya" 26/1999, 31 - 34.

46. Prokopov, I., R. Gushterakliev. Coin and Coin Hoards II - I c. BC in the collection of the Historical Museum - Lovech. In: Numizmatika i sphragistika 1/2000, 18-57.

47. Prokopov, I., I. Petrov. Coin and Coin Hoards in the collection of the Historical Museum - Haskovo II - I c. BC. In: Proceedings of the Historical Museum Kyustendil - Application I, 2000, 5 - 22, /in Bulgarian with summary in English /.

48. Prokopov, I., Original Thasian tetradrachms and their imitations in the coin hoard from (Sabrano) Sabranovo /IGCH 965/. In: Problemi na izkustvoto 2/2000, 3 - 10. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/.

49. Prokopov, I. The tetradrachms of the Thasos island and of the Thasos type in coin hoards from Bulgaria. In: STRUKTURES ECONOMIQUE DANS LA PENINSULE BALKANIQUE VII - II SCIECLE AVANT J. - C., Opole, 2000, p. 155 - 167.

50. Prokopov, I. Infiltration of the Roman coins in Thracia - stages, chronology and territorial distribution. Thracia13, Studia in Memoriam Velizari Velkov, Serdicae, 2000, 375-386.

51. Grigorova, V., Prokopov. I. Les drachmes d'Apollonia et Dyrrachion en Illyrie dans la circulation monetaire enThrace (Iie - Ier s. av. J.-C.). Actes du 8e Congres International de Thracology Sofia 2000, Sofia 2002, 651-679.

52. Prokopov, I. The tetradrachms of Thasos Island in the hoard from village Matsa, in: "Maritsa-Iztok". Archaeological Research, Vol. 5, Radnevo, 2001, 193-209.

53. Prokopov, I. Notes over Thasian tetradrachms in the hoard of Osikovo, area of Targovishte /IGCH 928/, Proceedins of the National Historical Museum, 12/2001,14 - 23. /in Bulgarian with summary in English /.

54. Prokopov, I., The tetradrachms pf island of Thasos and of the "Thasian type" in the collection of Arhaeological Museum Varna. In: Proceedings of People's Museum - Burgas - Studia in honorem Ivani Karayotov, Burgas 2002, 161-173. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/.

55. Prokopov, Ilya: Les tetradrachmes thraces du type de Thasos, in: 21/2002, p. 83-90.

56. Prokopov, I. The tetradrachms of the "Thasian type" and route through South-West Bulgaria. In: Proceedings of the Historical Museum Kyustendil, Vol.VI, 2002, 309-319. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/.

57. Prokopov, I. Hoard from Varbitsa, Veliko Tarnovo district. In: Works of the Scientific group of the Historical Museum Kyustendil Vol. 1/2002, 18-23. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/.

58. Prokopov, I. Hellenistic and early Roman coins found at archeological studies in Koprivlen, Gotse Delchev region in 1998 - 1999. in: Koprivlen, vol.1, Sofia 2002, 247-257. /in Bulgarian/

59. Paunov, E., Prokopov, I. An Inventory of Roman Republican Coin Hoards and Coins from Bulgaria (IRRCHBulg), Glaux 15, Milano 2002.

60. Prokopov, I. Some notes over the Thasian tetradrachms in the collection of The National Museum Belgrad. In: Historical reports 1, "Power and socium", Studia in honorem Margaritae Taceva, Blagoevgrad 2003, 139-153. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/.

61. Prokopov, I. Coin hoard from Padarevo - II, Nova Zagora area. In: Proceedings of the Historical Museum Kyustendil, Vol.VIII, Kyustendil 2003, 111 - 115. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/.

62. Prokopov, I., K. Kisyov and E. Paunov. Modern counterfeits and replicas of Ancient Greek and Roman coins from Bulgaria, Sofia 2003.

63. Prokopov, I. Coin hoard from North-West Bulgaria - I. In: Proceedings of the Historical Museum Kyustendil, Vol. IX, Kyustendil 2003, 47 - 68.

64. Prokopov, I., I. Petrov. One more stroke about coin circulation in South-East Bulgaria. Hoard from Momkovo,Haskovo district. In: Proceedings of the Historical Museum Kyustendil, Vol. IX, Kyustendil 2003,197 - 206. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/.

65. Prokopov, I. Silver coins of island Thasos II-I c. BC., from the collection of American numismatic society. In: Numizmatika i epigraphika I, 2004, 17-34…..

66. Prokopov, I. Contemporary Coin Engravers and Coin Masters from Bulgaria, "Lipanoff" Studio. Sofia 2004.

67. Prokopov, I.&E. Paunov. Cast Forgeries of Classical Coins from Bulgaria, Sofia 2004.

68. Davidova, D., I. Prokopov. Further data on the coin hoard found near Zlatograd. In: Annual of the Archaeologocal Museum Plovdiv, Vol. IX/2, Plovdiv 2004, 244- 252. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/.

69. Prokopov, I., I. Hristov. New discovered coin hoard with tetradrachms from the Hellenistic epoch in area of Golyama Jelyazna, Troyan district. In; Proceedins of the National Historical Museum, Vol. XV, Sofia 2005, 106 - 116. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/.

70. Prokopov, I. Hoard with tetradrachms of Thasos and First Macedonian region from "Plevensko - I". In; "Anali" 1-4/2005, Sofia 2005, 11-21. /in Bulgarian with summary in English/.

71. Prokopov, I. &R. Manov. Forgery Studios and their coins. Sofia 2005.

FORTHCOMING

72. Davidova, D., and I. Prokopov. New commentary about coin hoard from Kuklen, Asenovgrad district (IGCH 911). In: Annual of the Archaeologocal Museum Plovdiv 2005-2006.

73. Davidova, D., and I. Prokopov. The tetradrachms of First Macedonian region from the fund of the Archaeologocal Museum Plovdiv . In: Annual of the Archaeologocal Museum Plovdiv 2005 - 2006.

74. Prokopov, I., P. Stojnov. New coin hoard from South-West Bulgaria. In: Works of the Scientific group of the Historical Museum Kyustendil Vol. 2.

75. Prokopov, I. Coin hoard from Strojno, district Jambol, and coin circulation in South-East Thracia during II-I c.BC. In "Maritsa-Iztok", Archaeological Research, Vol. 6, Radnevo, 2004.

76. Prokopov, I. Coin circulation in region of Pautalia during the second half of II and first half of I c. BC. In: Proceedings of the ²Vth International symposium "Pautalia-Velbujd-Kyustendil and adjoining territory", 2004.

77. Prokopov, I. The silver triangle "South-Southeast", questions and answers. In: "National archaeological conference in Nova Zagora" 2001.

78. Prokopov, Ilya: The Imitations of late Thasian tetradrachms: Chronology, classifications and dating, in: Proceedings of the 13th International Congress of Numismatics, Madrid, 2003.

79. Manov, R., and I. Prokopov. Early Thasian coins VI - IV c. BC from the district of Gotse Delchev. In: Regional archaeological conference in South-West Bulgaria 2004.

80. Prokopov, I. Coin Hoard from North-West Bulgaria - II. In: Macedonian Numismatic Journal ¹ 5, Skopie 2005.

81. Prokopov, I., and P. Stojnov. Coin hoard with tetradrachms of Thasos and First Macedonian region from "Plevensko- II". In: The 2nd regional archaeological conference in South-West Bulgaria 2003.

82. Prokopov, I. Coin hoard with late Hellenistic Macedonian tetradrachms from Central North Bulgaria. In: Works of the Scientific group of the Historical Museum Kyustendil Vol. 2/2005.

83. Prokopov, I. Countermarked Thasian trihemiobol IV c.BC., from the area of the West Rhodopes. In: The 3th regional archaeological conference in South-West Bulgaria 2004.

84. Prokopov, I. Die Silberpragung der Insel Thasos und die Tetradrachmen des "Thasischen Typs" vom 2.-1. Jh. v. Chr. (Griechisches Munzwerk), Berlin 2005 (Schriften zur Geschichte und Kultur der Antike).

85. Filipova, Sv., M. Manov, E. Paunov and I. Prokopov. Numismatic collection -"Pautalia", Coin collections and coin hoards from Bulgaria, / CCCHBulg.I / Sofia 2005.

86. Popova, M., and I. Prokopov. Bibliography of Bulgarian numismatics XIX-XX c. AD.

87. Prokopov, I. The Silver coinage of The Macedonian Regions, Sofia 2005.

88. Prokopov, I., T. Kovaceva. Coin Hoards and coins from the 2nd and 1st centuries BC in the Numismatic Collection of the Pleven Museum. Sofia 2005.

And about 150 other titles in the field of Numismatics.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Voynov_BG

[Voynov_BG 3]

[Peckris 579]

Fascinating! That adds a lot to the earlier discussion, and kudos to you for the research

[Coppers 58]

If anyone's interested -- now on ebay....

link