A suggestion

[Farmer Palmer 0]

Being as we are all pretty much aware of whats happening with the fake coin scene and the standards being worked to,i wonder if it might be an idea to present clear photographs of these fakes when and should we come across them.

Reasons why its a fake or whats apparant on it that discloses its fake would be ideal.Ive noticed the odd murmour of members wondering if they have a fake unknowingly amongst the collection,between us we should surely be able to establish genuine from fake out of our own collections.

I know i have one or two that worry me , mainly because of the extremely fine conditions and thought that theres nothing to stop an unscrupulous dealer selling chinese fakes in the UK or anywhere else.

If nothing else we settle our own minds for better or worse and maybe learn something.I havnt seen it being done anywhere else , its high time the fakes were out on the table so we can all see them i would think.

[choolie 0]

Yes I did think that the conversation in eBay laughs was meriting its own topic. Any information references, advice on where to buy/avoid or book suggestions on counterfeits would be appreciated.

[azda 979]

I'd go along with that suggestion, although naming and shaming the seller or so would'nt be a great idea, unless its apparent that, that person is always selling junk. A friend of mine got a shilling from Ebay the other day, and it was 1 gram light, instead of it being say 5.65g it was 4.3g or so. I'll see if he's got a picture. I think there is also a suggestions thread, so maybe this is better there so that Chris could maybe pick up on it and start the topic in its own right just like he did with the coin aquisition of the week thread, but a great idea.

[Farmer Palmer 0]

Thanks lads , i think and hope we all learn from it.Its like Chris said (i think it was Chris) if they make thier dies from one coin and therefore all fakes will mirror that coin with all its quirks , we can start nailing these down.

The shilling mentioned would be an excellent start , a gram light is a huge red flag unless its hammered and clipped.Ive seen the videos of inside Chinese fakes factories,ive seen the silver crowns coming off the line,it shocked me at the time but now im wondering why..we all know they fake the US silver dollars , why not the British crown and countless others.

I agree with we shouldnt go down the road of naming/shaming a seller on suspicion as do so many other forums.Its between a buyer and a seller what transpires,auction feedback is there for a reason.Its adequate to be as prearmed as possible is the idea , identify whats being faked as the Americans have.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Farmer Palmer

[azda 979]

Here's the pictures he sent me, i gotta say, i don't know why he even bothered, its an absolute mess

[azda 979]

The OBV

[Chris Perkins 228]

That's clearly a contemporary forgery in brass with the last tiny bits of silvering left over.

If there's to be an area on forgeries then it should be reserved for modern copies that are dangerously realistic.

[Farmer Palmer 0]

Thanks for posting that Azda , id imagine with the correct lighting during the photo session that would fool a lot of people.I do get Chris's point on the matter of the real dangers,that being some counterfeiters are using the correct materials ie silver to create near perfect replicas.

Currently and in latter years its been the American coins being copied,stands to reason as the Americans are coin collecting daft,they all do it.Whats worrisome is the possibility that British coins were being faked all along and trickled into the market rather than the torrent of US fakes we see daily.

[choolie 0]

There is an article in this weeks "investors Chronicle" about sovereign investing. There wasn't much of interest in it but they did point out a useful site which I didn[t know about concerning counterfeit coins.

coin authentication

[Red Riley 2]

That's clearly a contemporary forgery in brass with the last tiny bits of silvering left over.

If there's to be an area on forgeries then it should be reserved for modern copies that are dangerously realistic.

Although they do present pitfalls for the inexperienced, in my view contemporary forgeries just add to the fun of collecting and can be an interesting area of collection in their own right. The coins issued in 1816-20 were particularly prone to less than convincing forgery. Every serious numismatist should have at least one in their collection!

There is a distinct difference between the two types of forgery. Contemporary forgeries were designed by the counterfeiters to defraud the faceless government of the day whereas the latest glut are much more pernicious in that their intention is to swindle the likes of you and me out of our individually hard-earned cash. It's Brinks Mat v. a Post Office heist.

[Rob 3,152]

The OBV

Here's one with the silvering intact

[1949threepence 3,367]

There is an article in this weeks "investors Chronicle" about sovereign investing. There wasn't much of interest in it but they did point out a useful site which I didn[t know about concerning counterfeit coins.

coin authentication

Interesting site. My eye was drawn to the following:-

Secondly, Collectors Universe, Inc. and PCGS have release photographs of a tampered PCGS holder with a composite coin. They describe the items as, "These four photographs show a tampered PCGS encapsulation holder with a fraudulent insert. When the holder was cracked open it revealed that it housed the pictured coins, a genuine 1879 and a genuine Carson City Mint dollar that were split in two along the rim to create an "1879-CC." PCGS experts believe the diagnostic evidence indicates the 1879 Morgan dollar used in this case most likely was an 1879-S." PCGS would not say this but obviously this type of fraud is made much easier with a coin contained in a holder that does not allow the edge to be examined.

Something that fake & tampered slabbing will conceal & needs to be watched for.

[Peckris 579]

Here's the pictures he sent me, i gotta say, i don't know why he even bothered, its an absolute mess

That's not a modern fake, it doesn't belong in the category under discussion. It's a silver-washed copper forgery produced in the early 19th century. They are of variable quality, but they are extremely common. Few people are going to be fooled by them.

(Oh I see others got there first! Sorry guys)

Edited April 18, 2010 by Peckris

[azda 979]

Rob, could you explain a litte how i could tell that the coin pic you posted is a fake coin, to me it looks ok. What are we looking for?

[Rob 3,152]

Rob, could you explain a litte how i could tell that the coin pic you posted is a fake coin, to me it looks ok. What are we looking for?

Here's a picture of the reverse. There is a tiny point in the centre where the copper is showing through. In the hand it doesn't look or feel right either, though it is a decent copy as the fields have some reflectivity.

[azda 979]

Yeah i see that now, although the shield top right does'nt look great either, what is the weight of it out of curiosity?

[azda 979]

Chris, could we rename this topic as modern fakes or something so people can find it and perhaps post their images?

[Rob 3,152]

Yeah i see that now, although the shield top right does'nt look great either, what is the weight of it out of curiosity?

5.37g.

[azda 979]

Not so far off the correct weight then, making things harder

[Peckris 579]

Not so far off the correct weight then, making things harder

What's even more curious is how they managed such decent copies back then. My feeling is that some dies must have "got out" - it was the early days of the new Mint after all, with Boulton & Watt's machinery having to be installed; must have been a fair amount of chaos going on for a while.

[Farmer Palmer 0]

There is an article in this weeks "investors Chronicle" about sovereign investing. There wasn't much of interest in it but they did point out a useful site which I didn[t know about concerning counterfeit coins.

coin authentication

Thats an interesting site , thank you.

[1949threepence 3,367]

Not so far off the correct weight then, making things harder

What's even more curious is how they managed such decent copies back then. My feeling is that some dies must have "got out" - it was the early days of the new Mint after all, with Boulton & Watt's machinery having to be installed; must have been a fair amount of chaos going on for a while.

Maybe some were smuggled out by employees after a quick buck. Probably security was a bit lax at times, with the management most likely more concerned with preventing the theft of actual coins.

Edited April 20, 2010 by 1949threepence

[Peckris 579]

Not so far off the correct weight then, making things harder

What's even more curious is how they managed such decent copies back then. My feeling is that some dies must have "got out" - it was the early days of the new Mint after all, with Boulton & Watt's machinery having to be installed; must have been a fair amount of chaos going on for a while.

Maybe some were smuggled out by employees after a quick buck. Probably security was a bit lax at times, with the management most likely more concerned with preventing the theft of actual coins.

Good point - and the management would probably have made the reasonable assumption that without Boulton & Watt's extremely expensive machinery, the dies wouldn't have been much use. Hah!!