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Following on from Gary's aquisition of the 1909 'dot' penny, I thought I would start a thread on dots. I've got an 1891 with a random dot, here it is - to the left of the trident.

Sorry about the crappy photo, coins in slabs aren't easy (no slab bashing on this thread please :ph34r: )

Now I know what I think, but I thought I'd ask the question, are these dot's of significance or aren't they ?

post-4698-127263499825_thumb.jpg

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Following on from Gary's aquisition of the 1909 'dot' penny, I thought I would start a thread on dots. I've got an 1891 with a random dot, here it is - to the left of the trident.

Sorry about the crappy photo, coins in slabs aren't easy (no slab bashing on this thread please :ph34r: )

Now I know what I think, but I thought I'd ask the question, are these dot's of significance or aren't they ?

Random dots are just that and to most collectors should be irrelevant, stop variations are significant as they are integral to the original design. If a dot in the wrong place appears because a speck of metal fell off the die, then the gradual degradation of the die gives rise to an infinite number of varieties as it gets blocked/worn/damaged. In the context of a study where you are trying to establish the number of dies and their working lives it would be an integral part, so as a specific die within a group of otherwise identical ones it is of academic interest but not worth more than a modest premium at most. That said, if someone wants to pay me a sum of money for a coin that is vastly in excess of my personal valuation then I would have absolutely no qualms about taking the money. Two happy punters are better than one. I suspect that most of the recent interest in micro varieites arises because for many people it offers an extension to the collection which is otherwise nearly complete based on the original objectives. The number of people doing serious die studies is probably limited to little more than a handful. All of which is said without the statistical evidence to back it up, but I would suggest is not wide of the mark.

Edited by Rob

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Rob, amen to all you said - somewhat similar to mine (opinion) in the other aquisition post.

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There are dots and there are celebrated dots. 1897 penny, 1946 penny and less so the 1909 penny. The 1897 is value highly for some reason and the 1946 comes up too often to become very valuable. Perhaps I should make a killing err I mean sell my 1909 before the interest wains.

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There are dots and there are celebrated dots. 1897 penny, 1946 penny and less so the 1909 penny. The 1897 is value highly for some reason and the 1946 comes up too often to become very valuable. Perhaps I should make a killing err I mean sell my 1909 before the interest wains.

I would. I think the hype surrounding the 1897 etc is similar to the undated 20p except that in this case it is carried out by relatively informed people. Part of the problem has to be the number of collectors specialising in the field. Pennies have always been popular. They are the largest physical denomination (of any numerical quantity) in the cheapest metal obtainable and will always have a strong following for that reason. Conversely, you don't find the same numbers collecting 5 guineas or crowns for the opposite financial reasons.

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for many people it offers an extension to the collection which is otherwise nearly complete based on the original objectives.

Quite agree, Rob. The idea of completion terrifies me, so I'm always looking for new gaps to create. Most recent was the Bird's Foot flaw on the 1918KN. I got one, by accident, so it went into the 'A' collection as a new recognised (by me) variety, and thus created a "Shop-gap" in the 'B' collection so it needs to be upgraded. I'm trying to do the same with 1953 halfpennies (plenty of ex-set 1+A examples about, but can't find a 2+A), sharp-cornered '48 3d, round cornered '41 and 1937 Pennies. Part of all this is due to just acquiring a Freeman, but I'm sure once I'm done I'll be looking for a Davies.

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There are dots and there are celebrated dots. 1897 penny, 1946 penny and less so the 1909 penny. The 1897 is value highly for some reason and the 1946 comes up too often to become very valuable. Perhaps I should make a killing err I mean sell my 1909 before the interest wains.

I definitely would. The dot doesn't exactly hit you in the eye, and if you weren't aware of it, you might miss it completely. Even in BU it wouldn't form any sort of collection cornerstone for me.

Sure, the novelty value is there, but hardly more than superficial, and if you do manage to sell it for a good price, there are other more attractive coins the money you realise, could be put towards.

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There are dots and there are celebrated dots. 1897 penny, 1946 penny and less so the 1909 penny. The 1897 is value highly for some reason and the 1946 comes up too often to become very valuable. Perhaps I should make a killing err I mean sell my 1909 before the interest wains.

If anyone ever sees a high grade 1946 anywhere,please let me know - I'd love one in GEF or better for my own collection.

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So I think we all basically agree, dots which are not a constituent part of the design and that are accidents of wear, are of no significance.

However, it doesn't finish there because it does seem to matter where the accident has happened. If it's in the fields like mine, then no-one is interested, if it's within the legend, there appear to be some folk who find this more exciting. If you look at the 1909, it's clear to see that it's not intentional, if it was, it would be at the foot of the N not the top.

So is it attracting value because it's being passed off as intentional, an integral part of the design ?

I guess so.

And certainly if one in fine fetched £300 then I would turn that 1909 around pronto, who knows what it might fetch.

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how about no dot?

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That's interesting Scott, but I haven't got any 2008's to compare it with. Is it a rarity or do all 2008's have no dot ?

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currently its the only one i know of.. 2008's should have the dot

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