1921 shillings

[declanwmagee 122]

I wonder could any of you learned gentlemen cast your wise eyes over these two?

I'd been shopping for an upgrade for our 1921 shilling, but when it came it just looked a bit different. I had been aware of the two obverses, but it's not a variety I'd paid much attention to, because I've never been that convinced by the "Nose to S, or SV" business - not quite definite enough for me, not like a pointing to a bead or between a bead that you can see immediately.

Watch out for the rotation on the obverse scans if you examine them - I know it's not quite right.

...and if I'm barking up completely the wrong tree, give it to me straight!

cheers

Declan

[Peckris 579]

I wonder could any of you learned gentlemen cast your wise eyes over these two?

I'd been shopping for an upgrade for our 1921 shilling, but when it came it just looked a bit different. I had been aware of the two obverses, but it's not a variety I'd paid much attention to, because I've never been that convinced by the "Nose to S, or SV" business - not quite definite enough for me, not like a pointing to a bead or between a bead that you can see immediately.

Watch out for the rotation on the obverse scans if you examine them - I know it's not quite right.

...and if I'm barking up completely the wrong tree, give it to me straight!

cheers

Declan

I'm qualified to answer this, as I'm the person that got Spink to upgrade their catalogue with the two types of pre-1926 obverses for halfcrowns, florins and shillings. And I lobbied for it, purely so they could record the rare 1921 shilling. Alas! They cocked it up. The 'nose to S/SV' was only one of a series of identifiers I'd sent them, but that's the one they picked out. And got wrong. The 'nose to...' business should be the other way about, which is why everyone is now so thoroughly confused, sigh.

Your two examples are both the Type 2 'recut' portrait, with lower profile portrait. One of the giveaways is the space between the legend and the rim, which is greater on those types. If you look at a pre-1920 shlling, you will notice the legend is closer to the rim, which is also a bit higher.

But the other main telltale is the height of the portrait, which is considerably higher, i.e. more 'modelled' than the flatter, later portrait. This is why 1921-1926 coins wear so rapidly, as the portait is so much flatter, with less well-defined hair. (Also, compare a 1911 penny obverse with a 1922 - the comparison is similar). There are also differences like the serifs on the letter E, and the pointing of the nose.

The earlier obverse for 1921 shillings is considerably rarer - indeed, quite rare - than the later type. You wouldn't think so from looking at the values listed in Spink however. A BU example of the rare shilling would easily fetch between £200 and £300. Ten years ago, I met a dealer friend who had acquired three of them from some old guy who'd had them all his life. He paid £60 apiece and confidently expected to get near £200 each for them.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Peckris

[1949threepence 3,367]

Well I can't really add to Peck's excellent comprehensive post on this subject, except to say that when I was in the midst of assembling my date run shilling collection from 1902 to 1936 (now complete, apart from 1905), I found 1921 the most difficult to get hold of in UNC condition ~ and that was just the commoner type

Eventually, I bid £31 for an UNC (with light dirty spots), on what was clearly an off night for other e bay bidders, and my £31 did not meet the seller's reserve. I asked the seller (julie sutton) what the reserve price was, as I might be willing to meet it, but in the end, she let me have it for £31.

Very pleased I was with it, too.

[declanwmagee 122]

Fantastic answers, chaps. Here's a photo of my 1919 (left) with one of the 1921s (right), and even I can clearly see the difference in the gap between the rim and the legend...

thank you for that!

Declan

[declanwmagee 122]

I asked the seller (julie sutton) what the reserve price was, as I might be willing to meet it, but in the end, she let me have it for £31.

Very pleased I was with it, too.

Yes, Dave and Julie are very decent sorts, and we've had many very satisfactory dealings with them. Perhaps we should have a "Decent eBay Sellers" thread as well as eBay laughs?

[DaveG38 405]

I asked the seller (julie sutton) what the reserve price was, as I might be willing to meet it, but in the end, she let me have it for £31.

Very pleased I was with it, too.

Yes, Dave and Julie are very decent sorts, and we've had many very satisfactory dealings with them. Perhaps we should have a "Decent eBay Sellers" thread as well as eBay laughs?

Declan,

If its of interest to you, I have just finished my second book entitled 'The Identification of 20th Century Silver Coin Varieties' (sister book to the Bronze one which forum members are aware of). This gives a wide range of identifiers for the silver/cupro-nickel coinage varieties from 1900 to 1999 and shows some 250 or so photos of the different coins and their characteristics. Price to forum members is £9.99 plus £3 postage, a discount of £5 on the Amazon price which will be £14.99 when it gets there in a few months time.

DaveG38

[Red Riley 2]

I asked the seller (julie sutton) what the reserve price was, as I might be willing to meet it, but in the end, she let me have it for £31.

Very pleased I was with it, too.

Yes, Dave and Julie are very decent sorts, and we've had many very satisfactory dealings with them. Perhaps we should have a "Decent eBay Sellers" thread as well as eBay laughs?

Good idea, Declan. I am always in favour of the stick and carrot approach and if any dealer shows themselves to be honest and helpful beyond the call of duty, then I think this should be made public. I don't however think we should restrict it to e-bayers.

[azda 979]

DaveG38 put me down for a book, am hoping you take Paypal or have a German bank account. I also agree with Declan and Red about the good ebay sellers guide, would help people here who don't wanna trawl through all the dross that gets sold on ebay. Great idea Declan

[1949threepence 3,367]

Yes, put me down for a copy as well, Dave. Cheers.

Amongst other e bay sellers I've found to be very good, I'd list:-

bitsandbob1204 (as previously mentioned)

theflyer66 (aka Lloyd Roberts)

gazonker (aka David Bauer)

curlietailz (aka Sue Smith)

2258albert (aka Albert Evans, who usually does "buy it nows" at under book price)

gary1970coins (aka Gary McGoldrick)

declanwmagee

All the above I would thoroughly recommend as excellent e bayers

Edited May 16, 2010 by 1949threepence

[declanwmagee 122]

Yes, put me down for a copy as well, Dave. Cheers.

Amongst other e bay sellers I've found to be very good, I'd list:-

bitsandbob1204 (as previously mentioned)

theflyer66 (aka Lloyd Roberts)

gazonker (aka David Bauer)

curlietailz (aka Sue Smith)

2258albert (aka Albert Evans, who usually does "buy it nows" at under book price)

gary1970coins (aka Gary McGoldrick)

declanwmagee

All the above I would thoroughly recommend as excellent e bayers

that declanwmagee is a bit pricey though, and he needs to get his head round cameras rather than scanning...

[1949threepence 3,367]

Yes, put me down for a copy as well, Dave. Cheers.

Amongst other e bay sellers I've found to be very good, I'd list:-

bitsandbob1204 (as previously mentioned)

theflyer66 (aka Lloyd Roberts)

gazonker (aka David Bauer)

curlietailz (aka Sue Smith)

2258albert (aka Albert Evans, who usually does "buy it nows" at under book price)

gary1970coins (aka Gary McGoldrick)

declanwmagee

All the above I would thoroughly recommend as excellent e bayers

that declanwmagee is a bit pricey though, and he needs to get his head round cameras rather than scanning...

Well, despite your reservations, we on here won't hear a word against him.....

[scott 144]

i have bought from bitsandbobs before.

pelnty of good sellers on ebay

[Peckris 579]

i have bought from bitsandbobs before.

pelnty of good sellers on ebay

I always get my gum from ebay. But then, I'm a Northerner.