Rare Bun Head Penny

[Mat 2]

The coming London coins June sale has a 1877 slender, Lot 2034 - estimate £750-£1500. Has anyone got one in worse or better condition that the one being offered?

And you all remember the 1841 hc in Good/Vgood that w&w sold last time? well there is a lovely one being offered in the London coins auction.

[azda 979]

The coming London coins June sale has a 1877 slender, Lot 2034 - estimate £750-£1500. Has anyone got one in worse or better condition that the one being offered?

And you all remember the 1841 hc in Good/Vgood that w&w sold last time? well there is a lovely one being offered in the London coins auction.

Sorry, but i would'nt be paying those prices for it

[scott 144]

i dont know what one looks like :/

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

The coming London coins June sale has a 1877 slender, Lot 2034 - estimate £750-£1500. Has anyone got one in worse or better condition that the one being offered?

Hard to find one in worse condition I should have thought ?

Lots of nice stuff in this auction. The Ed VII Florins (1330-1337) caught this penny collectors eye when they shouldn't have...

[1949threepence 3,367]

i dont know what one looks like :/

There you go......Lot 2034 as referred to above.

Not especially impressive IMO

[azda 979]

i dont know what one looks like :/

There you go......Lot 2034 as referred to above.

Not especially impressive IMO

It still doesn't scream 2k more like 2 quid lol, although copper pennies seem to be all the rage right now, suppose i'll never buy one then

Edited June 5, 2010 by azda

[azda 979]

The link to the auction...will also post in the links section for safe keeping for realised prices later.

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/index.php?page=Preview

[Mat 2]

The coming London coins June sale has a 1877 slender, Lot 2034 - estimate £750-£1500. Has anyone got one in worse or better condition that the one being offered?

Hard to find one in worse condition I should have thought ?

Lots of nice stuff in this auction. The Ed VII Florins (1330-1337) caught this penny collectors eye when they shouldn't have...

They certainly do look nice, there is one described as UNC but with a couple of surface marks which looks very appealing to me. I don’t think the surface marks they mention detract from it at all, if I was going to bid I think I would go for that... reasonable estimate as well.

With the penny, I am just waiting on the edge of my seat to see some guy shed out £24k again!!

Have to admit, for the right price I would like to have a shot at that 1841 half crown, especially after the way that one with w&w sold the other month.

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

I can't see it happening.

Surely the Nutter has barked, twitched and howled his last and it will go for a much saner hammer price.

Like a tenner......

[scott 144]

didnt one of those sell for £3100?

interesting though, i wonder what the origins are on those narrow dates.

[Red Riley 2]

I can't see it happening.

Surely the Nutter has barked, twitched and howled his last and it will go for a much saner hammer price.

Like a tenner......

A sane price would be in the low thousands. It is what I call a genuine variety and should be sought after. I reckon the guy that went apeshit with his money last time is now satisfied and the market will return to normal levels, but if he's not...

It's an interesting question why there were narrow and wide dates which occur every year from 1874 to 1879 (bar 1878), but of course the width of the date is only the tip of the iceberg with many other differences (e.g. thick/thin lighthouse) also in evidence. I don't know what the reasons behind this were, but if anybody knows I would be fascinated to learn.

[Coppers 58]

I can't see it happening.

Surely the Nutter has barked, twitched and howled his last and it will go for a much saner hammer price.

Like a tenner......

A sane price would be in the low thousands. It is what I call a genuine variety and should be sought after. I reckon the guy that went apeshit with his money last time is now satisfied and the market will return to normal levels, but if he's not...

It's an interesting question why there were narrow and wide dates which occur every year from 1874 to 1879 (bar 1878), but of course the width of the date is only the tip of the iceberg with many other differences (e.g. thick/thin lighthouse) also in evidence. I don't know what the reasons behind this were, but if anybody knows I would be fascinated to learn.

There had to have been at least one underbidder when the slender 3 penny sold. I wonder if that fellow now realizes what a narrow escape he had.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Coppers

[Mat 2]

I can't see it happening.

Surely the Nutter has barked, twitched and howled his last and it will go for a much saner hammer price.

Like a tenner......

A sane price would be in the low thousands. It is what I call a genuine variety and should be sought after. I reckon the guy that went apeshit with his money last time is now satisfied and the market will return to normal levels, but if he's not...

It's an interesting question why there were narrow and wide dates which occur every year from 1874 to 1879 (bar 1878), but of course the width of the date is only the tip of the iceberg with many other differences (e.g. thick/thin lighthouse) also in evidence. I don't know what the reasons behind this were, but if anybody knows I would be fascinated to learn.

There had to have been at least one underbidder when the slender 3 penny sold. I wonder if that fellow now realizes what a narrow escape he had.

Just out of curiosity and I know we all have the same opinion on that slender 3 penny.... how many more of them are known to exist, and do you reckon they are from different dies or the same dies as the normal 3 but somehow it went skewiff? I know that sounds like an amateur question but I think it may be possible if the die became damaged/worn and a couple got through before it was noticed. Or on the flip side the original die was the slender 3 and a few were struck and got through, and then it was realised and the die replaced with the normal...

[Red Riley 2]

Just out of curiosity and I know we all have the same opinion on that slender 3 penny.... how many more of them are known to exist, and do you reckon they are from different dies or the same dies as the normal 3 but somehow it went skewiff? I know that sounds like an amateur question but I think it may be possible if the die became damaged/worn and a couple got through before it was noticed. Or on the flip side the original die was the slender 3 and a few were struck and got through, and then it was realised and the die replaced with the normal...

Freeman reckons it could be unique but Gouby doesn't mention it at all. This doesn't mean that he was unaware of its existence, but possibly that he didn't consider it to be of sufficient significance, on which point I agree with him. Clearly somebody begs to differ!

[scott 144]

i'm guessing 1874-6 were because of the H versions

what confuses me is the existance of the 77's and 79's i have the 1879 version

as for the slender 3i could see very little differance tbh.

i'm looking at my 1897's i'm sure one has a shorter 7 then the other. but its very hard to tell as we a re talking at most half a border tooth differance, so still checking.

[Peckris 579]

i'm guessing 1874-6 were because of the H versions

what confuses me is the existance of the 77's and 79's i have the 1879 version

as for the slender 3i could see very little differance tbh.

i'm looking at my 1897's i'm sure one has a shorter 7 then the other. but its very hard to tell as we a re talking at most half a border tooth differance, so still checking.

The date numeral variations between 1895 to 1910 are a fairly well flogged dead horse. It's almost certainly due to die wear, or very slight die differences at a time when no other changes accompany them. It's very common, and IMO not worthy of a flicker of interest.

To underline the point : in the late 60s one Coin Monthly reader did a big survey of worn 1907 pennies, subdividing the 7s into length of downstroke and pointing, coming up with maybe 5 or 6 "varieties". Now? All that research may as well have never been done, for all the apathy that now reigns on the subject. Unlike bun pennies, that later reverse just doesn't seem to arouse enthusiasm.

[Rob 3,152]

There are various sizes of punch for all characters because of the different sizes of flan for the denominations. For the design to look balanced, you need a proportionally similar ratio between flan diameter and legend height. Without having checked any dimensions because I don't have any examples myself, are the characters on the wide and narrow date varieties from the same punches or are they physically narrower? If the latter, is it possible to identify which other dies the punches were used for? I'm thinking in terms of Channel Islands, IOM, Ireland, or other empire issues. Can the individual punches used be identified from the coins available and do they match any of the punches stored in the Royal Mint? Any items stored there are likely to have some sort of indicator as to their use.

[TomGoodheart 400]

Mmm .. I think this is one of the reasons I'm just not as excited by milled coinage as hammered. With the latter, you have 20 dies and you have 20 potential 'varieties' because they will all be subtly different. And so you are (generally) forced to consider only the grossest changes significant.

The subtler variations in positioning of legend, changes to the coat of arms and so on usually only come into play when you're guestimating how many dies might have existed. Or checking if your coin is that illustrated in an auction catalogue. Yes, I guess someone, somewhere, might be collecting each and every different castle mint mark or harp in the Royal arms, but most of us just have to ignore those.

Whereas (a few) milled collectors seem to get all aerated about a worn out dot, a slightly different tooth alignment or a 10th of a mm between date numerals. Really it's no different from sovereign die numbers to me. And about as interesting. Sorry.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 412]

Here's mine....

[Mat 2]

Here's mine....

Great stuff! Your 7 looks more slender than the one with london coins.

[Rob 3,152]

Whereas (a few) milled collectors seem to get all aerated about a worn out dot, a slightly different tooth alignment or a 10th of a mm between date numerals. Really it's no different from sovereign die numbers to me. And about as interesting. Sorry.

I'll second that.

I see the sales blurb for the London Coins lot mentions that Laurie Bamford's example raised about £3500. I also note that it fails to mention the estimate in advance of the sale which was £50-100, a much saner number. I realise there aren't too many about and can understand the rationale for a price in the hundreds, but several £k is beyond comprehension in this grade when there are an unknown number out there. It would not be unreasonable to expect a VF example or more/better to randomly turn up just as in a recent DNW sale there was a collection with two Chester Civil War shillings which increased the number known by 33%. How would that affect pricing because at this point the grade is starting to become attractive? Granted there are a lot of penny collectors about, but surely it would be better to save their money for a 1933, 1954 or toothed border 1953.

[RLC35 288]

Gary,

You have close even spacing on your 1877 date. That is the identifier for the narrow date 1877. I would like to have one, but 3500 pounds is a little steep for a "Fair" coin, which is what Bamfords was listed as in the CCGB.

BTW Gary, I was able to purchase another 1880/8 recently in a little better condition (VF) than my original example.

[scott 144]

i got an 1879 lol

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

It is incomprehensible, to me anyway, how someone could pay these sums for these coins, the more so when one considers what else that money could buy. The only way I can rationalise it to myself, is to assume that there is an extremely wealthy individual at large who uses an agent to manage his money. Victorian bronze and copper have attracted interest as an 'alternative' asset class which has done very well recently and a small proportion of an extremely large portfolio has been allocated to bronze rarities on the advice of a coin dealer to the agent.

I can't accept that a genuine collector would lavish these sums on coins in that condition who's rarity is unknown and to some eyes (mine) of very little interest.

I don't think we're dealing with coin people here.

[1949threepence 3,367]

It is incomprehensible, to me anyway, how someone could pay these sums for these coins, the more so when one considers what else that money could buy. The only way I can rationalise it to myself, is to assume that there is an extremely wealthy individual at large who uses an agent to manage his money. Victorian bronze and copper have attracted interest as an 'alternative' asset class which has done very well recently and a small proportion of an extremely large portfolio has been allocated to bronze rarities on the advice of a coin dealer to the agent.

I can't accept that a genuine collector would lavish these sums on coins in that condition who's rarity is unknown and to some eyes (mine) of very little interest.

I don't think we're dealing with coin people here.

I absolutely couldn't agree more with the principles you espouse there, 400, and I also agree that no sane genuine collector, who collects for the love of the hobby, would shell out that kind of dosh for a very worn example of a minor variety.

That said, of course, if there are individuals fool enough to part with large sums of money for what is little more than junk, then there will be no shortage of coin people willing to offload