Rare Bun Head Penny

[Red Riley 2]

It is incomprehensible, to me anyway, how someone could pay these sums for these coins, the more so when one considers what else that money could buy. The only way I can rationalise it to myself, is to assume that there is an extremely wealthy individual at large who uses an agent to manage his money. Victorian bronze and copper have attracted interest as an 'alternative' asset class which has done very well recently and a small proportion of an extremely large portfolio has been allocated to bronze rarities on the advice of a coin dealer to the agent.

I can't accept that a genuine collector would lavish these sums on coins in that condition who's rarity is unknown and to some eyes (mine) of very little interest.

I don't think we're dealing with coin people here.

But 400, you are a self-confessed 'grading Nazi'. There are other fascists out there who get their kicks from rarity, and personally I tend towards the latter. Dunno why, something to do with my genes I guess. Michael Gouby estimated 2-10 of these 1877 narrow dates in existence and Freeman 6-15. It is to my mind a fairly major variety and unlike the ridiculous narrow 3, the differences don't end there - the reverses are as different as the standard 1926 obverse was from the ME. For some reason - and I've never seen any explanation for this - between 1874 and 1879 the mint seem to have been using two master dies concurrently.

Rob, I have studied two 1874s, one narrow and one wide. It may take a better eye than mine to determine whether different punches were being used, but I don't think so. As I said however, the differences don't end there.

I wouldn't splash out more than a grand on that coin because I haven't got the money, but if I did, I just might. I am sure somebody will.

[Red Riley 2]

I don't think we're dealing with coin people here.

I think we are. A very rich one with no sense of proportion perhaps, but a coiny nonetheless. The chances of making any money on that 1863 are negligible having paid what, 15 times the estimate or whatever it was. No investment adviser would take that risk, if it went wrong the chances of them being sued would be close to 100% so it really can't be anything other than a collector.

Sorry you're in the firing line this morning 400 must be last night's ESB taking its revenge!

[TomGoodheart 400]

Mmm .. despite the lack of appeal of this particular coin to me, I kinda agree with Red. Last (only, really) time I bought a really expensive coin, I'd have paid quite a bit more (I freed up as much as I could and would have spent it all).

Getting my money back was the last of my considerations at the time. There were four known examples, two more were found, I knew none of the existing four were likely to come on the market for many years, and I wanted one.

Would I do it again? .. probably .. chances to fill a gap with a true rarity don't come up very often. My only cause for hesitation is the knowledge that coins eventually do come up for sale, and sometimes in rather better condition. If one did and if it was nicer .. well, I might regret being rash and leaving myself with no funds for several very tempting coins that have come on the market since then.

But that's collecting I guess; balancing the 'if's with desire and common sense. And despite now seeing quite clearly the times I've been carried away and paid well over the odds with little hope of recouping my money, I can't honestly say that I'd never do it again!

[azda 979]

As we always say on here, and i'll repeat, "a coin is only worth what you as a buyer is willing to pay" auction fever should be registered as an illness with the BMC

[TomGoodheart 400]

As we always say on here, and i'll repeat, "a coin is only worth what you as a buyer is willing to pay" auction fever should be registered as an illness with the BMC

Mmm .. would that mean I could get an NHS precription for additional cash to treat my "sickness"??

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Sorry you're in the firing line this morning 400 must be last night's ESB taking its revenge!

No need to apologise Sir, with a mouth to brain connection like mine, I'm more than used to it.

I don't get the 'rarity in poor grade' thing, although I am never going to sit in judgment on anyone's collecting theme. The reason I sometimes get a bit animated when someone pays £23,000 for a beaten up disc is the effect it can have on prices in general by association.

There's a real upward pressure on pennies and I'm not massively happy about it, haven't been for a while, you may be able to deduce this from my moniker.

So, if I get the chance to poo-poo the inflationary big men with the money, I take it.

ESB Red ? a DANGEROUS beverage if ever there was one...

[azda 979]

To be honest, i would'nt pay out 23k on a disc either, i could buy a nice car with that, 400s comment on him not being happy because of the upwardly prices of said coins has a double edge to it,, in one sense its costing more to buy, but on the other hand, when you come to sell 400

[Coppers 58]

There's a real upward pressure on pennies and I'm not massively happy about it, haven't been for a while, you may be able to deduce this from my moniker.

If the prices on pennies are too high -- there are always farthings and halfpennies.

[Red Riley 2]

To be honest, i would'nt pay out 23k on a disc either, i could buy a nice car with that, 400s comment on him not being happy because of the upwardly prices of said coins has a double edge to it,, in one sense its costing more to buy, but on the other hand, when you come to sell 400

The thing is the guy probably has a nice car and a nice house and a supermodel girlfriend; either that or he's a really sad recluse called Ralph...

I could never defend £23k on a beat up minor, minor variety even if I were Bill Gates, but I could defend a four figure sum on that 1877 that London Coins have up for auction.

Incidentally, is anyone going to their auction at Bracknell? I think most of the best stuff is on Tuesday. I might mosey on down and check it out, keeping my hands firmly in my pocket.

[azda 979]

How about you uploading some of those Penny pictures 400. Would love to see a few of them.

[davidrj 194]

Unlike bun pennies, that later reverse just doesn't seem to arouse enthusiasm.

[Red Riley 2]

Nice 1897 high tide just gone on ebay £145 in GF

Now that is a very minor variety and no mistake.

[Colin G. 147]

There's a real upward pressure on pennies and I'm not massively happy about it, haven't been for a while, you may be able to deduce this from my moniker.

If the prices on pennies are too high -- there are always farthings and halfpennies.

Oi!! don't encourage them all to collect farthings you will push the prices up and give me more competition for purchases

[davidrj 194]

Nice 1897 high tide just gone on ebay £145 in GF

Now that is a very minor variety and no mistake.

?? why should this be considered a minor variety? totally different die - higher tide, shield much closer to the rim, P of Penny to a gap rather than a tooth

Do you consider the 1902 low tide minor?

Another puzzle though.. why does it exist just for 1897 and in such low quantity

[Coppers 58]

There's a real upward pressure on pennies and I'm not massively happy about it, haven't been for a while, you may be able to deduce this from my moniker.

If the prices on pennies are too high -- there are always farthings and halfpennies.

Oi!! don't encourage them all to collect farthings you will push the prices up and give me more competition for purchases

In that case I'll try my best to discourage them from collecting farthings even though they are every bit as interesting as the penny series and yet a fraction of price. It will just be our secret.

[Red Riley 2]

?? why should this be considered a minor variety? totally different die - higher tide, shield much closer to the rim, P of Penny to a gap rather than a tooth

Do you consider the 1902 low tide minor?

Another puzzle though.. why does it exist just for 1897 and in such low quantity

I think we really ought to consider the 1902 low tide as a minor variety; trouble is that 20th century varieties are few and far between so it obviously got noticed. In the 02's defence though, I would say that the difference is much more evident as the tide has moved up to where the legs cross whereas the 97 has just moved a bit further up the shin. I guess the '97's shield is a bit more noticeable but perhaps not in worn condition. Who said coin collecting was logical!

There are several dies throughout the series that appear briefly and then vanish again but I have no idea why this is.

[davidrj 194]

Who said coin collecting was logical!

[scott 144]

i want to know what the 2 1895's are about

cant see much differance between it and low tide tbh

Edited June 7, 2010 by scott

[Red Riley 2]

i want to know what the 2 1895's are about

cant see much differance between it and low tide tbh

OK Scott, if my scanner was working properly I'd send you photos, but it's one of those where you need a ruler and the two coins side by side.

1) On the variety usually known as the '1895 2mm', the angle of the trident and the P of the word 'penny' are 2 mm. apart whereas on the standard issue they are 1 mm. apart;

2) The variety has a slightly lower tide, but on neither type is the tide a particularly prominent feature and on worn examples it may have disappeared altogether. This is what gives rise to the variety's other name of '1895 low tide';

3) The word 'penny' is much more scrunched up on the variety and has noticeably smaller spacings than the word 'one';

4) Britannia is actually very slightly smaller and neater on the 2mm. making her look slightly more elegant.

Hope that answers your question.

[davidrj 194]

i want to know what the 2 1895's are about

cant see much differance between it and low tide tbh

OK Scott, if my scanner was working properly I'd send you photos, but it's one of those where you need a ruler and the two coins side by side.

1) On the variety usually known as the '1895 2mm', the angle of the trident and the P of the word 'penny' are 2 mm. apart whereas on the standard issue they are 1 mm. apart;

2) The variety has a slightly lower tide, but on neither type is the tide a particularly prominent feature and on worn examples it may have disappeared altogether. This is what gives rise to the variety's other name of '1895 low tide';

3) The word 'penny' is much more scrunched up on the variety and has noticeably smaller spacings than the word 'one';

4) Britannia is actually very slightly smaller and neater on the 2mm. making her look slightly more elegant.

Hope that answers your question.

Scott, there's a nice 2mm 1895 here 1895 2mm

[scott 144]

yea

i have an 1895 2mm but worn, i dont get the origins for this issue, why is it differant?

and why do the 1897's higher tide exist, and on the picture i saw little differance

[davidrj 194]

yea

i have an 1895 2mm but worn, i dont get the origins for this issue, why is it differant?

and why do the 1897's higher tide exist, and on the picture i saw little differance

I assume that the 1895 2mm was the first design that was abandoned some reason and replaced with the "normal" reverse used from 1895 to 1902(LT). The 1897 "Gouby X" is the odd one, never seen a picture of one in high grade.

[scott 144]

talking of minor varietys

if we were american each and every single die would count as a variety if they had a slight differance (to the point the differant 7's on 1897 and 1907 would count)

and some varietys i see listed are mere filled dyes sometimes.

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

talking of minor varietys

if we were american each and every single die would count as a variety if they had a slight differance (to the point the differant 7's on 1897 and 1907 would count)

Seems we might be heading that way anyway mate.

Huge interest at the moment in date spacing and numeral form.

Now I've typed that, makes me wonder if all the scary money for minor varities is coming from across the pond ?

[1949threepence 3,367]

talking of minor varietys

if we were american each and every single die would count as a variety if they had a slight differance (to the point the differant 7's on 1897 and 1907 would count)

Seems we might be heading that way anyway mate.

Huge interest at the moment in date spacing and numeral form.

Now I've typed that, makes me wonder if all the scary money for minor varities is coming from across the pond ?

Well, what I thought was a relatively innocuous remark about the 1879 narrow date penny being, in my opinion, a "minor variety" certainly caused a bit of a stir, for whatever reason. At the end of the day, however, it has to come down to personal opinion. For example, I don't see the 1902 LT penny as a minor variety. I recognise that others may.

So be it.

What you say above about interest coming from across the pond, may well have an element of truth to it. I cannot imagine too many collectors in this country wanting to pay out a 4 figure sum for what is essentially a clear date only flat disc. That said, sustained interest in these types from the States, can only drive up prices here.

Whether that's a good or bad thing, is debatable.