Old newspaper article on pennies

[Fubar 80]

These two must have taken hours of intricate work with a jewellers saw; why? ?apprentice pieces

I think that could fairly easily be explained away by saying some jewellers apprentice was practising a new machine or something ?

There are some standard engineering shop tools that allow you to do this sort of thing.

I did it as part of an apprentice piece many moons ago.

[Fubar 80]

I have what might be considered a pocketful of loose change from 1945.

Recovered from the site of a local bomber crash (Handley Page Halifax)that happened in April 1945.

It consists of -

2 x Halfcrowns - 1922

1 x Florin - 1922, 1 x Florin - 1923, 1 x Florin - 1930, 2 x Two Shillings - 1944

1 x Shilling with a young Victoria's head - date unreadable (almost smooth)

1 x Sixpence - 1920, 1 x Sixpence - 1922, 1 x Sixpence - 1929, 1 x Sixpence - 1944

1 x Brass Threepence - 1943

1 x Penny - 1918, 1 x Penny - 1930, 1 x Penny - 1938, 1 x Penny - 1940

1 x Halfpenny - 1905, 1 x Halfpenny - 1942, 3 x Halfpenny - 1944

I seem to remember having similair collections in my pockets although 15 years after this crash I was only getting paid ten bob for a full Saturday morning delivering grocery orders. So 18/9½d was quite a lot of money (about 18 pints of bitter).

Aircrew were not supposed to carry cash on ops so finding it was a bit of a surprise. All 7 crew died in the crash.

Interesting, but tragic story. Can you post some scans or are they all in grotty "as dug" condition?

Indeed. How did they come into your possession, Fubar, if you don't mind saying ?

I was a civilian instructor with the local Air Training Corps and we got involved in a bit of aviation archaeology. We applied and received permission to dig a local crash from the Ministry of Defence and the landowner. When we'd finished the bits were donated to the Yorkshire Air Museum and then back to me. Long and complicated story.

I'll try and scan some of them. It was surprising how well preserved some where after 35 years in the ground. Also how bent some where. I have a picture of the crash somewhere that'll give you an idea of the damage.

[Fubar 80]

This was the aircraft.

The picture was taken when she had completed 91 ops.

The crew pictured are not the ones who died in the crash.

I've met some of the ones in the picture although now most of them have completed their last tour of operations.

[Fubar 80]

One tail fin in the duck pond at the farm where she crashed.

The initial impact with the trees is in the background.

It was a very foggy night and the pilot was given permission to land.

Then they tried to divert him to Carnaby but it was too late.

[Fubar 80]

Having stalled trying to pull up she ploughed through the woods to the side of the farmhouse.

The two objects in the field to the left are engines.

The largest item in the middle is part of the fuselage.

She belonged to a Royal Australian Air Force squadron.

The RAF recovered most of the wreck and the bodies at the time.

The story is still developing. I've recently made contact with the nephew of the mid upper gunner who died in the crash.

[Fubar 80]

These are the coins.

They were only washed.

The first halfcrown has a ding, the first 1944 two shillings is almost uncirculated with lustre, the second one has a chunk out of the rim, the sixpences are as would be expected except for the 1944 which is badly bent, the 3d is corroded, the 1940 penny is bent, the 1942 halfpenny is badly bent, two of the 1944 halfpennies appear to have been burnt or in accid and the last one is about perfect except for a dirty edge.

Close ups of selected ones I can do if anyone wants them.

Cheers

Kris

[argentumandcoins 70]

interesting oddities that obviously took somebody some careful work to construct.

These two must have taken hours of intricate work with a jewellers saw; why? ?apprentice pieces

fake milling

Just found the reference in Freemans 1985 edition on page 19.

In it he states that since his earlier work the Mint had purchased an electron microscope and upon examination determined that all bronze with milled edges had been altered after the coins had left the mint.

[davidrj 194]

Just found the reference in Freemans 1985 edition on page 19.

In it he states that since his earlier work the Mint had purchased an electron microscope and upon examination determined that all bronze with milled edges had been altered after the coins had left the mint.

Thanks, that explains why there is no mention by Gouby

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

These are the coins.

Very poignant Kris.

I'm guessing the coins were the contents of all the crews pockets, rather than just one individual ?

It's funny how it's the everyday objects that lend scale to an incident like this - highlights the fact that they were just normal blokes in abnormal times.

[1949threepence 3,367]

These are the coins.

They were only washed.

The first halfcrown has a ding, the first 1944 two shillings is almost uncirculated with lustre, the second one has a chunk out of the rim, the sixpences are as would be expected except for the 1944 which is badly bent, the 3d is corroded, the 1940 penny is bent, the 1942 halfpenny is badly bent, two of the 1944 halfpennies appear to have been burnt or in accid and the last one is about perfect except for a dirty edge.

Close ups of selected ones I can do if anyone wants them.

Cheers

Kris

Absolutely fascinating story, Kris. Thank you very much indeed for that.

Considering that all those coins will have effectively been frozen as far as wear is concerned, since 9 April 1945, there is an amazing amount of wear on the 1922, and especially the 1920 sixpences, after just 23 and 25 years respectively. Same as between now and 1985 for us today. I've noticed people on this forum say what a dearth of pre 1930 circulating silver there was back in the 1960's. The condition of those two,in the mid 40's, explains why.

[Fubar 80]

These are the coins.

Very poignant Kris.

I'm guessing the coins were the contents of all the crews pockets, rather than just one individual ?

It's funny how it's the everyday objects that lend scale to an incident like this - highlights the fact that they were just normal blokes in abnormal times.

All the coins were found in a small area whereas things like crew watches, bits of flying gear, etc., were quite widely scattered so they were assumed to belong to one crew member.

That might give you an idea of the nature of the crash.

The pilot was 22 years old and one of three Australians onboard. He had already completed one tour of ops and was on his second. He's buried in Harrogate with the navigator and another is buried in Scotland because he was recently married there.

It is assumed they had successfully completed their bombing sortie over Hamburg and there was no emergency declared. It was exactly one month before the war in Europe ended.

Normally the coins stay in storage because handling them too much starts me off on another search for answers.

[Fubar 80]

These are the coins.

They were only washed.

The first halfcrown has a ding, the first 1944 two shillings is almost uncirculated with lustre, the second one has a chunk out of the rim, the sixpences are as would be expected except for the 1944 which is badly bent, the 3d is corroded, the 1940 penny is bent, the 1942 halfpenny is badly bent, two of the 1944 halfpennies appear to have been burnt or in accid and the last one is about perfect except for a dirty edge.

Close ups of selected ones I can do if anyone wants them.

Cheers

Kris

Absolutely fascinating story, Kris. Thank you very much indeed for that.

Considering that all those coins will have effectively been frozen as far as wear is concerned, since 9 April 1945, there is an amazing amount of wear on the 1922, and especially the 1920 sixpences, after just 23 and 25 years respectively. Same as between now and 1985 for us today. I've noticed people on this forum say what a dearth of pre 1930 circulating silver there was back in the 1960's. The condition of those two,in the mid 40's, explains why.

The wear is unusual but I suppose that in wartime they couldn't afford to use too many resources producing new coinage.

I remember very worn coins being around when I was young but now I find that any coins of the era I come across are relatively unworn. Survival of the better grades I suppose.

I'm a sucker for this sort of thing. I have another small plastic bag that contains buttons, keys and coins that came from a small box in an auction general sale boxed lot. I like to think they all tell a story. Especially involving the RN, India, Ceylon, South Africa and Europe. I get them out every so often and try to imagine what brought them all together.

[Red Riley 2]

I'm a sucker for this sort of thing. I have another small plastic bag that contains buttons, keys and coins that came from a small box in an auction general sale boxed lot. I like to think they all tell a story. Especially involving the RN, India, Ceylon, South Africa and Europe. I get them out every so often and try to imagine what brought them all together.

I have always felt that the coins are just the tip of the iceberg and the true joy of collecting is the flights of fancy you can indulge in when handling a coin of any particular year. I did once sit down and work out the chances of a particular individual handling a coin assuming 1) Coin changes hands once a day; 2) stays in circulation for say, 50 years. Sadly, it wasn't very high!

[davidrj 194]

I have always felt that the coins are just the tip of the iceberg and the true joy of collecting is the flights of fancy you can indulge in when handling a coin of any particular year.

Quite! This is the point missed by the grade chasers

A circulated old coin has seen a lot of history

I suppose that makes me an old romantic rather than an astute investor; but what the heck, I collect coins for fun

[Peckris 579]

The wear is unusual but I suppose that in wartime they couldn't afford to use too many resources producing new coinage.

I remember very worn coins being around when I was young but now I find that any coins of the era I come across are relatively unworn. Survival of the better grades I suppose.

Not so. Silver coins were produced in great numbers from around 1942 onwards, and survive in huge numbers in high grade (partly due to hoarding when silver was replaced bu CuNi). It seems whatever else they economised over, currency was deemed essential to the war effort.

That little group isn't worth much to coin collectors, but it migiht mean a great deal to any surviving relatives of the crash, and it is a historic and poignant story in its own right.

[Fubar 80]

The wear is unusual but I suppose that in wartime they couldn't afford to use too many resources producing new coinage.

I remember very worn coins being around when I was young but now I find that any coins of the era I come across are relatively unworn. Survival of the better grades I suppose.

Not so. Silver coins were produced in great numbers from around 1942 onwards, and survive in huge numbers in high grade (partly due to hoarding when silver was replaced bu CuNi). It seems whatever else they economised over, currency was deemed essential to the war effort.

That little group isn't worth much to coin collectors, but it migiht mean a great deal to any surviving relatives of the crash, and it is a historic and poignant story in its own right.

That would explain why I have a full uncirculated set of two shilling pieces from that time.

I was surprised to learn that coinage was a priority.

I always think provenance is very important. The history of an object is sometimes as important as the object itself. Coins are difficult in this area because most of them have no provenance or, as has been mentioned elsewhere, the records have been discarded.

As far as I know there are no surviving relatives of the crew member I think the coins belonged to so they will stay with me as a reminder of why I am allowed the freedoms I enjoy in today's world.

[Red Riley 2]

Not so. Silver coins were produced in great numbers from around 1942 onwards, and survive in huge numbers in high grade (partly due to hoarding when silver was replaced bu CuNi). It seems whatever else they economised over, currency was deemed essential to the war effort.

Due in no small measure to the large numbers of American servicemen stationed in this country.

[Peckris 579]

Not so. Silver coins were produced in great numbers from around 1942 onwards, and survive in huge numbers in high grade (partly due to hoarding when silver was replaced bu CuNi). It seems whatever else they economised over, currency was deemed essential to the war effort.

Due in no small measure to the large numbers of American servicemen stationed in this country.

I should have guessed!

[scott 144]

at least we didn't use zinc

[scottishmoney 29]

Due in no small measure to the large numbers of American servicemen stationed in this country.

Along with war brides and sometimes even children by then, they often brought home coins as souvenirs of their stay in Britain. Back when I was in the 2nd grade my teacher was English, and I remember her teaching us English English and not American English, the root of why to this day I still spell words the British way - favour, not favor etc. Anyway to cut to the chase she was a war bride, marrying an American serviceman.

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

English English and not American English, the root of why to this day I still spell words the British way - favour, not favor etc.

Off topic, but I've always wanted to ask an American about this.

It seems reasonably clear that someone has sat down and painstakingly de-Frenchified, if that's a word, the English language. The obvious one is the OU that you have identified, but then there's Centre/center, Defence/Defense etc, etc. I have always assumed that this was something to do with the Louisiana purchase, do you know ?

[Red Riley 2]

English English and not American English, the root of why to this day I still spell words the British way - favour, not favor etc.

Off topic, but I've always wanted to ask an American about this.

It seems reasonably clear that someone has sat down and painstakingly de-Frenchified, if that's a word, the English language. The obvious one is the OU that you have identified, but then there's Centre/center, Defence/Defense etc, etc. I have always assumed that this was something to do with the Louisiana purchase, do you know ?

Je ne sais pas.

To my knowledge standard spelling was not achieved in the UK until a certain Dr. Johnson wrote his dictionary in 1755, so up until that time you spelt it kind of the way you wanted - to most pwople it was irrelevant anyway as they could neither read nor write. I'm guessing that with the stretched lines of communications between Britain and the colonies, Dr. Johnson's writ never held sway in America and they just did their own thing.

Oh sorry, I 'm not an American...

[Peckris 579]

English English and not American English, the root of why to this day I still spell words the British way - favour, not favor etc.

Off topic, but I've always wanted to ask an American about this.

It seems reasonably clear that someone has sat down and painstakingly de-Frenchified, if that's a word, the English language. The obvious one is the OU that you have identified, but then there's Centre/center, Defence/Defense etc, etc. I have always assumed that this was something to do with the Louisiana purchase, do you know ?

It's a mixture of things. In some respects the Americans use the old forms of English and WE changed, not them. Other examples are where we modified a word for specific reasons : the original word was 'aluminum', then Brits added an 'i'. Finally there was an American attempt in the 19th Century to make spelling logical, and hence the 'u' was dropped from colour favour etc, and some other changes, but the whole exercise wasn't gone through which is why there are still anomalies.

The book to read is Bill Bryson's 'Mother Tongue' - it's all in there.

[scott 144]

yea but i wish they would stop inflicting thier english on everyone else.

and why do they do dates backwards

[Peckris 579]

yea but i wish they would stop inflicting thier english on everyone else.

and why do they do dates backwards

The dates thing enrages me. I really cannot see the logic of starting in the middle (month) then going to the smallest (days) then ending with the biggest (year). Totally and utterly illogical. I once heard an American claim "it's because we say 'May 12th". Come again? It's just as common to say "12th of May"!!