1763 British Coin

[argentumandcoins 70]

Just on the off chance that any ebayers happen to Google the title of the post

ALL "1763 BRITISH COIN" ON EBAY ARE FORGERIES OF THE NORTHUMBERLAND SHILLING

Sorry to the members of the site, but I have just been on ebay.com and was astounded to see a regular bidder on my items had actually bought one of these from China for £155

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Oh dear.

That's only going to encourage them isn't it.

What is the exact law around forgeries? I have it in my head that it isn't illegal to forge a coin which is no longer circulating, is that right ?

[Red Riley 2]

Oh dear.

That's only going to encourage them isn't it.

What is the exact law around forgeries? I have it in my head that it isn't illegal to forge a coin which is no longer circulating, is that right ?

But it would be illegal to pass it of as an original item, or at least to imply as such.

[argentumandcoins 70]

Oh dear.

That's only going to encourage them isn't it.

What is the exact law around forgeries? I have it in my head that it isn't illegal to forge a coin which is no longer circulating, is that right ?

But it would be illegal to pass it of as an original item, or at least to imply as such.

Correct.

The problem is how do you enforce the law internationally, or does it even apply internationally?

We have all seen the fake clothing sweatshops being raided on the news as copyright laws apply to Armani et al and I bet most of us have seen the coin production videos (mostly US forgeries) where no action appears to be underway at all.

All these items can do is to de-stabilise the market by creating mistrust. I haven't had one in the hand so I don't know what the metal; content is or if the feel right but if they start changing hands at fairs etc it will be a disaster.

[Red Riley 2]

Correct.

The problem is how do you enforce the law internationally, or does it even apply internationally?

We have all seen the fake clothing sweatshops being raided on the news as copyright laws apply to Armani et al and I bet most of us have seen the coin production videos (mostly US forgeries) where no action appears to be underway at all.

All these items can do is to de-stabilise the market by creating mistrust. I haven't had one in the hand so I don't know what the metal; content is or if the feel right but if they start changing hands at fairs etc it will be a disaster.

I think as we have said before, few reasonably well-informed collectors would buy such an object direct from China. However, once in this country, attempting to pass them off as genuine is fraud, although the perpetrators could and surely would, plead ignorance. It has been known for some while that a high percentage of the Northumberland Shillings on the market are forgeries. I guess the answer is to keep your ear to the ground and only buy types which are known to have been forged from somebody you trust implicitely.

[Rob 3,152]

As I have said a few time before, a decent provenance never harmed a coin's value. If you have a 1763 1/- with a provenance predating the recent issues, then you are pretty much onto a winner. I simply don't understand the indifference of some collectors to a good provenance. Yes it will require you to pay full market value for a coin in all probability, but if you look after your own interests (which includes doing your own research) then there is no reason why the "dodgy issues" shouldn't be collected. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN COLLECTING HABITS INSTEAD OF LIVING IN A NANNY STATE WHERE NOBODY SAYS MEA CULPA OR TAKES THE LEAD

There have always been forgeries, even in the Montagu or Morrieson cabinets for example, so clearly even the experienced can be taken in by a good one. They did tend to be weeded out fairly well though. The recent spate of copies has moved the goalposts by orders of magnitudes.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Rob

[azda 979]

As I have said a few time before, a decent provenance never harmed a coin's value. If you have a 1763 1/- with a provenance predating the recent issues, then you are pretty much onto a winner. I simply don't understand the indifference of some collectors to a good provenance. Yes it will require you to pay full market value for a coin in all probability, but if you look after your own interests (which includes doing your own research) then there is no reason why the "dodgy issues" shouldn't be collected. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN COLLECTING HABITS INSTEAD OF LIVING IN A NANNY STATE WHERE NOBODY SAYS MEA CULPA OR TAKES THE LEAD

There have always been forgeries, even in the Montagu or Morrieson cabinets for example, so clearly even the experienced can be taken in by a good one. They did tend to be weeded out fairly well though. The recent spate of copies has moved the goalposts by orders of magnitudes.

I think provenance is a good start, although how do you do that with every single coin Rob? You also stated 2 things, 1 Do your own research, which yes can be done, but then you 2nd point lead to a slight hitch is the 1st point, if auction houses are having difficulty telling these apart then how are the more general or weekend buyers going to achieve this? Some people just don't sit and look at coins all day as their business, only as their hobby, we tend to rely on dealers and acution houses to give us the real deal. So what now?

I've seen one on ebay.co.uk (850 quid) and to be honest i don't know if its the real deal or not, personally it doesn't look real, but again i really don't know, so if anyone could shed some light on WHY these coins are not genuine i think it would help others on the forum other than having to dig away and perhaps come up with the wrong conclusion

Edited August 10, 2010 by azda

[Red Riley 2]

As I have said a few time before, a decent provenance never harmed a coin's value. If you have a 1763 1/- with a provenance predating the recent issues, then you are pretty much onto a winner. I simply don't understand the indifference of some collectors to a good provenance. Yes it will require you to pay full market value for a coin in all probability, but if you look after your own interests (which includes doing your own research) then there is no reason why the "dodgy issues" shouldn't be collected. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN COLLECTING HABITS INSTEAD OF LIVING IN A NANNY STATE WHERE NOBODY SAYS MEA CULPA OR TAKES THE LEAD

There have always been forgeries, even in the Montagu or Morrieson cabinets for example, so clearly even the experienced can be taken in by a good one. They did tend to be weeded out fairly well though. The recent spate of copies has moved the goalposts by orders of magnitudes.

A very good point Rob. Most coins though don't come with provenance but 1763 shillings are rare enough for a good proportion of them, you would have thought, to have picked up a bit of paperwork on the way.

I sometimes think we are in danger of looking down the wrong end of a telescope when discussing forgeries. Despite taking every precaution, it is still possible that you might pick the odd wrong'un and unless you are spending too high a proportion of your available cash on coins then it oughtn't to be a disaster. Annoying yes, disastrous no. The important word here is 'collection', i.e. an indefinite number; tens, hundreds, thousands even. Coins are not fine art where you buy one excrutiatingly expensive Monet that turns out to have been painted in a garden shed in Northampton, nor is it the cut and shut Mondeo that leaves you in several pieces on the northbound carriageway of the M1. Coins are plural and unless someone throws a cartwheel twopence at you with considerable force from point blank range, do you no harm. The best insurance policy against being stung by a fraudster is the rest of the honest coins in your collection and a sense of proportion.

[Rob 3,152]

As I have said a few time before, a decent provenance never harmed a coin's value. If you have a 1763 1/- with a provenance predating the recent issues, then you are pretty much onto a winner. I simply don't understand the indifference of some collectors to a good provenance. Yes it will require you to pay full market value for a coin in all probability, but if you look after your own interests (which includes doing your own research) then there is no reason why the "dodgy issues" shouldn't be collected. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN COLLECTING HABITS INSTEAD OF LIVING IN A NANNY STATE WHERE NOBODY SAYS MEA CULPA OR TAKES THE LEAD

There have always been forgeries, even in the Montagu or Morrieson cabinets for example, so clearly even the experienced can be taken in by a good one. They did tend to be weeded out fairly well though. The recent spate of copies has moved the goalposts by orders of magnitudes.

I think provenance is a good start, although how do you do that with every single coin Rob? You also stated 2 things, 1 Do your own research, which yes can be done, but then you 2nd point lead to a slight hitch is the 1st point, if auction houses are having difficulty telling these apart then how are the more general or weekend buyers going to achieve this? Some people just don't sit and look at coins all day as their business, only as their hobby, we tend to rely on dealers and acution houses to give us the real deal. So what now?

I've seen one on ebay.co.uk (850 quid) and to be honest i don't know if its the real deal or not, personally it doesn't look real, but again i really don't know, so if anyone could shed some light on WHY these coins are not genuine i think it would help others on the forum other than having to dig away and perhaps come up with the wrong conclusion

You don't have to look at coins all day to learn about the various forgeries in circulation. Ken Peters wrote a very useful tome called the Counterfeit coins of England and the United Kingdom which lists hundreds of references for various denominations and issues and retails at £25. It is one of the best uses of £25 that I can think of. Complete? - never can be, but there is more than enough information in there to point you in the direction of what you need to read. How many have I sold to date? Answer 1. Spadework isn't sexy. Buying £1000 coins for £10 is however.

There is a seeming reluctance on the part of people to do anything other than trawl eBay for apparent bargains and then complain when everything isn't what it seems. Sure the plethora of 1933 penny copies is obvious to all and sundry, but many iffy coins are not so obvious. Most sellers are basically honest, and so if you decide you have bought a dud for whatever reason they will take it back. If you have bought a gVF George IV crown for a few hundred pounds for example, it should be incumbent on you to at least make some rudimentary checks such as weight, appearance etc. The best way for individuals to protect themselves from forgeries or copies is to spend less time complaining about what is or could be out there and more time reading so they know what is out there and documented. You can't rely on others to sort out all the problems. If that was the case you wouldn't even bother looking at images before buying as a description would be adequate. When you buy a coin you assess it for grade and any problems; checking that a coin appears to be genuine based on the knowledge of what forgeries are out there is only an extension of that way of thinking. Put bluntly, I don't understand why people are prepared to blindly spend thousands of pounds on coins, but won't spend a few hundreds on literature. Anyone can miss a forgery, even people who have looked at coins all their lives, so surely the onus is on the individual to fully implement the phrase caveat emptor and cut out another individual's opinion/personality/behaviour etc - something over which you have no control, and grasp the nettle yourself. We aren't talking about the kid spending his couple pounds of pocket money here and being taken for a ride, we are talking about grown up people with disposable income who seem to be more intent on spending that surplus come what may than ensuring they are purchasing a sound product which they would automatically do if it was a car, mobile phone etc.

At the end of the day, nobody is forced to buy a coin. Most people get stung by the purchase of something that seems too good to be true. Greed overrules common sense (something that is flogged to death by eBay) but then that same individual claims to be aggrieved that their 1933 penny which cost them a tenner isn't the real deal.

[Hussulo 6]

I agree with all the points made hear. You really need to do your homework when buying expensive or rare coins on ebay. If you buy from a reputable dealer and they have a good returns policy you should be covered. If buying from ebay and from abroad returning coins can become tricky especially when a certain time passes but everyone seems to expect to find bargains on ebay.

The trouble is quite a few of the Chinese counterfeits are die struck nowadays and I've seen some 1763 shillings offered by sellers in China that appear to be very good quality.

If they use genuine silver and get the weight of the planchet right they will be even harder to tell from the real thing especially to a non expert.

The other point to consider is what if they use real silver to strike not so rare coins. Perhaps coins valued at £100. They might slip under the radar even easier as you wouldn't expect a provenance with such coins.

Heres an apparently fake US one being discussed on a US coin forum:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280546338960&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp3984.m570.l1313%26_nkw%3D280546338960%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

The winner probably thinks they have done great buying a multi thousand dollar coin for that price when in fact the coin would be worth $2ish.

A lot of people are going to get there fingers burnt.

[Rob 3,152]

Which is why I said read the documentary evidence. If you know what is out there you are less likely to get your fingers burnt. Even die struck modern copies in the right metal will have some tell-tale indicators which mark them out as copies. It might be a small flaw, it might be a number of pits in the same place on all coins, but all copies will have something that identifies them as such.

It isn't only ebay. Some of those copies are going to get into dealers' general inventory. Anyone spending money ought to at least check what they are buying. It's not unreasonable.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Rob

[Hussulo 6]

I've seen several at local Antiques fairs. Usually copies of US trade dollars.

Non appear to be real silver and are way to light even if picked up in hand I'm not even sure if the "dealers" know what they are selling as they are pricing them at around the silver price of a coin that size (around an ounce). Either they know they are copies but believe them to be silver or the think they are genuine but only worth silver value.

[azda 979]

Unfortunately i don't know anyone who buys the book before the coin. I stumbled into coins but it took me at least 6 months to buy a book because i did'nt realise i was going to start collecting. I do have a few books now though, but the same does'nt apply to everyone

[Rob 3,152]

Unfortunately i don't know anyone who buys the book before the coin. I stumbled into coins but it took me at least 6 months to buy a book because i did'nt realise i was going to start collecting. I do have a few books now though, but the same does'nt apply to everyone

I quite agree, but you would have thought that your average bloke who is suspicious of anything on offer for a tenner in the pub would then be equally suspicious of an £800 coin on sale for £100 or less. Beginners always dip their toes in the water with a few cheap purchases before committing large sums, so the lack of books at this point is understandable. What is not is the readiness with which people spend ever larger amounts based on their success with minor purchases. If the value of the coins is worth insuring, then it is worth the purchaser ensuring to their own satisfaction that the insured items are kosher.

[argentumandcoins 70]

There is another answer of course.... find a dealer that you trust (someone like me or Rob ) and make your high value purchases from them.

I have never knowingly sold a forgery and always refund in full if, for any reason, the buyer is not happy. I can't speak for any other dealers, but I am sure 99% will be the same.

My library grows every other month and currently stands me at around £1000, for most collectors that is way more than they are willing to spend, quite understandably, that is where the benefit of using the forum correctly comes into it's own. I am sure that virtually any coin that comes onto the open market will have a reference in a book owned by somebody on here. As Rob said, do your homework. Start a thread or contact somebody by PM if you don't want to alert the competition, but do ask somebody!

[Peckris 579]

Correct.

The problem is how do you enforce the law internationally, or does it even apply internationally?

We have all seen the fake clothing sweatshops being raided on the news as copyright laws apply to Armani et al and I bet most of us have seen the coin production videos (mostly US forgeries) where no action appears to be underway at all.

Yes, it does. Interpol was involved in high-profile faking crime syndicates on more than one occasion. It's not the 'making' of these items that is a crime, it's the attempting to pass them off as genuine. Same with international art forgeries.

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Anyone have any dealings with this chap ?

http://www.coinauthentication.co.uk/