James Workman Penny sale

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

A bit of a way out from our standards don't you think, hence the reason i asked how long London Coins have been grading for compared to the US grading companies

To be even handed, you'd have to say that the US grading companies are better at grading US coins and I don't think they pretend particularly to be experts in GB coinage.

[Rob 3,152]

Here was an answer i got about this ebay coin 160480085396 it states RED GEM which to me means BUNC. Look at the fingers of Britannia, hence the reason i asked if this was in fact RED GEM

The Reply

Thank you for the question. I consulted PCGS about the wear points of this coin before I listed it. According to PCGS an AU coin must show, quote "the slightest traces of wear visible on the (highest points) of the coin". I believe one of the highest points of this coin is the breast area? It is my understanding that a coin must show wear on more than one point, and this is why a Morgan Silver Dollar can show "incomplete" hair depth over the ear area on the obverse and grade an MS-64 if the cheek area shows no wear. Either way, I'm no expert myself and this is why I have included the grading guide. It is my wish that folks come to their own conclusion about the grade. I hope this answer helps

A bit of a way out from our standards don't you think, hence the reason i asked how long London Coins have been grading for compared to the US grading companies

This is a bit off topic and has been discussed elsewhere before, but the TPGs have a set of standards to which they work and these are based on the grading standards and assessments of the people who set up their various systems. The US companies grade on their interpretation of the Sheldon grading system. All will have differences relative to each other which is why every purchase should be based on your own assessment of grade and condition and you should not slavishly follow someone else's interpretation. Add in the fact that nobody is infallible, so attribution, grade and other factors immediately become questionable and consequently there is no excuse for buying blindly and then complaining. The same applies to buying raw coins.

As there is never going to be a consistent system applicable to all, the most important thing is consistency within the TPG. If all one person's EFs are another mans UNCs, then you know what you will get. If the opposite applies you are on equally safe ground.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Rob

[VickySilver 830]

Yes, many interesting bits of information to be gleaned from these boards. My understanding is that essentially there are TWO types of numerical grading, first is market grade and second is technical grade. As if that is not an absolute nightmare.

The Britannia breast issue (sounds a bit mature in subject matter, but is not) is problematic as this represents one of the high points on the coins surface, and there are others, so it is both the last bit to strike up and the first worn. IMO, the American TPG graders technically can grade a coin high with no wear but poorly struck as it may be essentially be "FDC" to mix terms but have only the strike details ooriginally that might be seen on another coin that is only VF for wear but originally fully struck up. Market grading as I understand it tries to give an increase of number for a visually appealing and well struck specimen, etc.

Peck, sorry if I do not remember specific questions. Sheen as I understand you to me is most likely lustre; lustre is NOT colour but rather a light phenomena cayssed by metal flow in the strike somewhat influenced by alloy (there is an interesting discussion of this peripherally on the www.pcgs.com US coin forum board as Daniel Carr of Denver describes the difficulties in striking up a modern 1964 D Peace dollar on an old Peace dollar blank where it is noted that detail increases with repetitive striking but lustre is lost as those "mini-peaks" are essentially ironed out by the striking.

[Hussulo 6]

and this is why a Morgan Silver Dollar can show "incomplete" hair depth over the ear area on the obverse and grade an MS-64 if the cheek area shows no wear.

Incomplete hair may be due to a week strike as opposed to actual wear. When a coin wears down it tends to show wear in more then one area. If you see an area that has been struck weekly like the centre of the coin (hair above the ear), the opposite side (eagles chest) would also display a weak strike.

A week strike still would be given a high grade by PCGS as they grade a coin by wear and not whether or not all the details are fully struck up.

Morgans are basically the same design year after year but some years and mints are better struck then others.

[Peckris 579]

So can anyone explain the difference to me in auction number 6 and 13 of the Workman sale. 6 says FULL LUSTRE OBV slightly toning and 13 says ALMOST FULL LUSTRE, but to me both have toned to the same degree, so if they are toned, how can they have FULL LUSTRE? How can 1 be different to the other? Look at the pix on the site if you don't have the sale catalogue

To my eyes, looking at the photos, item 6 has only limited lustre - you can see it in the legend and other points, ditto the reverse. The rest looks quite brown, which they may well define as "lightly toning" but to my mind simply CANNOT merit the description "Full lustre". It's also telling that Spink have a footnote in their catalogue in a few places : "Copper coins graded UNC in this catalogue have full Mint lustre". Which seems unequivocal to me.

Peck, sorry if I do not remember specific questions. Sheen as I understand you to me is most likely lustre; lustre is NOT colour but rather a light phenomena cayssed by metal flow in the strike somewhat influenced by alloy (there is an interesting discussion of this peripherally on the www.pcgs.com US coin forum board as Daniel Carr of Denver describes the difficulties in striking up a modern 1964 D Peace dollar on an old Peace dollar blank where it is noted that detail increases with repetitive striking but lustre is lost as those "mini-peaks" are essentially ironed out by the striking.

We're going to have to differ on this one Vick. You see, lustre to me IS colour, always has been, and has been too to all the dealers I've bought off over the years. And looking through the Workman sale list, apart from the coins we've mentioned, the later ones seem to refer to lustre as colour. For example :

84 : "Uncirculated with good lustre on both sides." (Yes - the colour is obvious)

86 : "Uncirculated with full lustre, lightly toned." (slightly disagree - I'd describe it as NBU, the colour is wearing a little on the reverse)

104, 105, 106 : "Uncirculated with full lustre" (Again, obviously BU in the sense of full colour)

These are all talking about colour.

[Hussulo 6]

We're going to have to differ on this one Vick. You see, lustre to me IS colour, always has been, and has been too to all the dealers I've bought off over the years. And looking through the Workman sale list, apart from the coins we've mentioned, the later ones seem to refer to lustre as colour. For example :

84 : "Uncirculated with good lustre on both sides." (Yes - the colour is obvious)

86 : "Uncirculated with full lustre, lightly toned." (slightly disagree - I'd describe it as NBU, the colour is wearing a little on the reverse)

104, 105, 106 : "Uncirculated with full lustre" (Again, obviously BU in the sense of full colour)

These are all talking about colour.

But Lustre IS NOT colour. If you dip or clean a toned coin back to a red colour it wont have lutre. I agree an Uncirculated BU coin should have lustre and colour but they are both different.

The following statement is by Daniel Carr (moonilight mint http://www.moonlightmint.com/index.htm whom has designed and struck many coins and medals)

luster is a product of two things : die wear, like you said, but also planchet expansion.

Proof-finish coins are struck two or more times because the first strike raises the relief and causes planchet expansion (flow),

while the second strike wipes out the flow lines (luster) and imparts the polished finish.

I can take a fresh fully-polished die, stamp once with it, and there will be some flow lines visible if any planchet expansion occurs.

I can take a freshly sand-blasted (matte) die, stamp once with it, and there will also be some flow lines visible if any planchet expansion occurs.

After use, a die will develop luster on it's surface. That luster will transfer to coins struck by it. But if struck more than once, with the planchet

expansion contained after the first strike, the second strike will REDUCE the cartwheel luster, even if the die face has cartwheel luster on it.

So lustre is essentially flow lines and the reflection of light they produce.

Edited to add:

Here's pictures of his press (ex Denver mint).

http://www.moonlightmint.com/artifacts.htm

Edited September 18, 2010 by Hussulo

[VickySilver 830]

Huss, as I become breathless trying to respond and try to work on an understanding of lustre, you are standing in nicely. BTW, I have met Daniel Carr and he not only is quite a gentleman, but is very knowledgeable about stiking coins and medals; if any readers have a chance they really should talk to him...

I am really only trying to spread knowledge and dispel incorrect notions as I would rather proceed with a scientific approach. So na hard feelings...

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

It's also telling that Spink have a footnote in their catalogue in a few places : "Copper coins graded UNC in this catalogue have full Mint lustre". Which seems unequivocal to me.

So it does, never noticed that before.

Well, in that case 99% of pennies described as UNC on dealers lists and Fleabay, aren't.

Which is quite an important point really......

It's also presumably why Michael Gouby's highest grade is AU ?

Also worth re-iterating for the 100th time, just how rare uncirculated pennies with full mint lustre really are.

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Huss, as I become breathless trying to respond and try to work on an understanding of lustre, you are standing in nicely. BTW, I have met Daniel Carr and he not only is quite a gentleman, but is very knowledgeable about stiking coins and medals; if any readers have a chance they really should talk to him...

I am really only trying to spread knowledge and dispel incorrect notions as I would rather proceed with a scientific approach. So na hard feelings...

I think, more than anything Vick, it's an issue of transatlantic lexicography and semantics rather than any fundamental disagreement over the lustre itself.

I need a lie down after all those long words....

[Red Riley 2]

So it does, never noticed that before.

Well, in that case 99% of pennies described as UNC on dealers lists and Fleabay, aren't.

Which is quite an important point really......

It's also presumably why Michael Gouby's highest grade is AU ?

Also worth re-iterating for the 100th time, just how rare uncirculated pennies with full mint lustre really are.

Michael's equivalent of BU is PAS, although it is a grade he seldom allocates and I will agree this is far closer to the Spink definition of Unc than that used by virtually anybody else, although the nomenclature is different. He evangelised the system in his book 'The British Bronze Penny 1860-1970' but subsequently amended it slightly. It is a system I have always used for my own collection and will continue to use.

[argentumandcoins 70]

It's also telling that Spink have a footnote in their catalogue in a few places : "Copper coins graded UNC in this catalogue have full Mint lustre". Which seems unequivocal to me.

So it does, never noticed that before.

Well, in that case 99% of pennies described as UNC on dealers lists and Fleabay, aren't.

Which is quite an important point really......

It's also presumably why Michael Gouby's highest grade is AU ?

Also worth re-iterating for the 100th time, just how rare uncirculated pennies with full mint lustre really are.

Spinks are quite a decent lot eh?

I don't use their guide but I do use their auctions and I can tell you quite uneqivocally that UNC in their auction catalogue applies to lack of wear due to circulation ,as it should, rather than blazing lustre/colour/shithouse door shine or whatever else you want to call it.

I think you are all totally missing the point on this, buy a coin because you like it and don't buy it if you don't like it.

Let Cookes call them what they want, at the end of the day it is down to the buyer to decide what the grade and amount of toning is, as it is the buyer that is spending their hard earned cash. I can call an aligator a terrapin if I want, it just means nobody will buy it!

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

or whatever else you want to call it.

I want to call it 'grade + percentage of remaining lustre' - this is my crusade, to eradicate all the horseshit from grading bronze.

[Hussulo 6]

That's the good thing about on line forums. They're a great place for discussion and sharing information/ knowledge and although we aren't always going to agree on every subject, discussion is healthy.

I agree that most coins listed on ebay aren't truly Unc or BU. Sellers or owners sometimes like to believe their coins are a better grade then they actually are. Of course it usually takes an impartial viewer or buyer to point out that they aren't but this usually wont go down well with the owner or seller.

Some sellers obviously over grade their coins on ebay hoping for more money. This is where knowledge is key. If you try to grade a coin accurately and pay what you are willing to and someone out bids you on a coin listed as Unc, but you only bid AU money on it, they're the ones that will lose out when they try and sell it on.

[Peckris 579]

But Lustre IS NOT colour. If you dip or clean a toned coin back to a red colour it wont have lutre. I agree an Uncirculated BU coin should have lustre and colour but they are both different.

I think you misunderstand me Huss. When I talked about 'colour' I was sepcifically responding to VickyS's use of the word, which he seemed to be using in relation to "Mint lustre red". I am quite clear (& agree with you) that Mint lustre cannot be restored. I'm really not interested in the science of it, but thank you both for enlightening me as to precisely what lustre is, I hadn't known that. I am simply - irrespective of the science - quite familiar with bronze and copper (and even silver) lustre. But to me (and oh god I wish I had a macro to avoid repeating myself to the point of nausea) "lustre" is a one-way ticket from the Mint, that once going-going-gone cannot be brought back. It may be "flow lines", it may all be Boulton Cartwheels, but whatever it is, we all - most of us - know what it is when we see it. And those examples from the Workman Sale that I quoted are where you can go and see it!

Spinks are quite a decent lot eh?

I don't use their guide but I do use their auctions and I can tell you quite uneqivocally that UNC in their auction catalogue applies to lack of wear due to circulation ,as it should, rather than blazing lustre/colour/shithouse door shine or whatever else you want to call it.

I think you are all totally missing the point on this, buy a coin because you like it and don't buy it if you don't like it.

Let Cookes call them what they want, at the end of the day it is down to the buyer to decide what the grade and amount of toning is, as it is the buyer that is spending their hard earned cash. I can call an aligator a terrapin if I want, it just means nobody will buy it!

Then Spinks are using a different definition of UNC in their auction catalogues than they use in their catalogue!

But I absolutely agree with you 100% about "if you like it buy it .. and explain it to the wife, from a galaxy far far away"

[VickySilver 830]

Wow, I had really tried hard to separate colour from lustre and evidently failed. They are actually semi-independent variables.Well, I guess I will let it all rest in any case

I do agree with buying the coin for the coin's sake, and hope this CCC Sale of the Workmen pennies comes out well - well could have said "works" out well...

[scott 144]

i got a 2010 penny here, cuds on a fair bit around the ONE PENNY, but this could be part of the situation, we talk of lustre, however this coin has an interesting effect, it has a bright lustre in a circular area in the middle of both sides, with a darker lustre from rim to the same distance from the ONE PENNY, is this TWO differant wavelengths?

[Hussulo 6]

Sorry Peckris. I didn't mean to come across abnoctious or high and mighty. I'm sure there are a lot of things you guys know that I don't That's why its good to share. I have learnt a lot on forums over the years.

Speaking of cartwheel lustre. I recently bought a coin on ebay.

1908 S Peso. It looked nice in the sellers picture. It was described as CH Unc.

Received it today and it has been whizzed. What a shame another nice coin ruined.

[Hussulo 6]

Oh well just sending the seller a message now to ask for a refund.

Most probably know about this but for those that don't the definition of whizzed (coin)

In the early 1970's, a technique was developed among dishonest dealers of burnishing their coins on a wire brush wheel. The surface of a coin is buffed to give it the appearance of having natural cartwheel lustre. This practice simulated mint lustre to the ignorant. A whizzed coin usually is easily detected with the use of a good magnifying glass, but some whizzed coins can be very deceptive. Under high magnification the surface of a whizzed coin will show many tiny scratches from contact with the wire brush.

[Hussulo 6]

I should add. I had to get the lighting right to show up the tiny scratches. It actually looks quite nice and not as obvious from a slight distance in hand.

[Red Riley 2]

Oh well just sending the seller a message now to ask for a refund.

Most probably know about this but for those that don't the definition of whizzed (coin)

In the early 1970's, a technique was developed among dishonest dealers of burnishing their coins on a wire brush wheel. The surface of a coin is buffed to give it the appearance of having natural cartwheel lustre. This practice simulated mint lustre to the ignorant. A whizzed coin usually is easily detected with the use of a good magnifying glass, but some whizzed coins can be very deceptive. Under high magnification the surface of a whizzed coin will show many tiny scratches from contact with the wire brush.

I think the best way to tell whizzed copper/bronze is that the 'lustre' (or whatever you want to call it!) is just too even and looks false. If you don't return the coin it will rapidly tarnish in a most unattractive way. This is why I am always very suspicious of hundred year old coins with 'full mint lustre' and no toning. In real life it don't happen. What makes it worse is that frequently the whizzing is not done with wire but on a buffing wheel and the scratches can only be seen with careful scrutiny.

Learn from one who has been caught!

Edited September 22, 2010 by Red Riley

[Hussulo 6]

Thankfully the seller has agreed to a full refund inc. postage. So it'll be on its way back tomorrow.

[scott 144]

what caused this strange lustre

[Peckris 579]

Sorry Peckris. I didn't mean to come across abnoctious or high and mighty. I'm sure there are a lot of things you guys know that I don't That's why its good to share. I have learnt a lot on forums over the years.

No no, you didn't. I was genuinely glad to learn, even though (when it comes to assessing and buying coins) it's of no relevance to me. So thank you for sharing that.

[azda 979]

So did anyone win any coins from the Workman sale? If so, care to share which?

[andyscouse 0]

So did anyone win any coins from the Workman sale? If so, care to share which?

I did! My budget was meagre, but I did manage to fill my 'decent 1945' hole with:

BMC 2411. F231. Dies 2+C. Gouby A. Extremely Fine with good lustre, appears to be a bright finish?

I emailed Neil at Colin Cooke about total amount with postage, and as I live in the US, I wouldn't expect to have it in-hand for a couple of weeks. That does, though, take my nice penny collection back to 1910 (of at least EF grade, mostly gEF or Unc - not H or KN, though!). So, I'm looking fwd to it ...