Is there anything at all we can do

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Someone actually did do something! Worthless pewter junk

I had to laugh, though I can't imagine the eBay people will be too pleased!

Well, that's a start, can anyone think of something we can do to back this fellow up ?

I posted a link to the BNTA website in response to a request for reputable dealers from a new entrant some while back and received a chorus of catcalls and a barrage of virtual soft fruit. Is it the case then, that the BNTA isn't well thought of and if so, is there any other body representing the coin hobby that we can take this up with ?

Are there any organisations representing the collector.

I do feel that we have to take this up with ebay, we can't just sit on our arses and let 'someone' else do it...

[Peckris 579]

Someone actually did do something! Worthless pewter junk

I had to laugh, though I can't imagine the eBay people will be too pleased!

I notice he hasn't adjusted the starting bid price!!! Still, as he says, there are plenty of idiots out there.

[azda 979]

Personally i think the sad thing is, is that when people report items to ebay, they do nothing about it, its all about money for them, with no interest if some poor sap has been stung buying crap or fake goods. This for me is the HUGE downside to Ebay, if they took some action sometimes it would help a little, instead they are just interested in the FVF and LISTING cash.

If this was a company like Asds or Tescos, they'd be pulled up by the trading standards, so why haven't trading standards pulled up Ebay about the amount of fakes that get hightlighted by reputable dealers/sellers, it amazes me that they get away with this, and damn frustrating to, have you tried this reporting BS, it takes them 3/4 days to react, by then the item is gone.

Oh and stick around, i may have found something that i will post shortly, want to see what you think about it (coin related of course)

Edited September 29, 2010 by azda

[TomGoodheart 400]

Are there any organisations representing the collector.

To be honest, I don't know. I have discussed these replica coins on EnglishHammered-L, CoinForgeryDiscussionList and obviously it's an issue on ForgeryNetwork.com. I have also talked with other collectors by email.

And that's part of the problem. The buyer community is fragmented. We tend to congregate with people of similar collecting habits or on general coin websites like this and the same subjects are discussed in half a dozen different places by 100 different collectors. There is, as far as I know, no one voice where issues can be highlighted in the knowledge that everyone that might be interested will read it.

The BNTA is just that, a trade association. I have dealt with several of its members over the years and found them to all be reputable folk. But I'm not sure that membership of a trade association is necessarily a recommendation. It just means you trade in an area and is no guarantee that you are knowledgable about everything that might pass through your hands.

The big auction houses are known to have collections of counterfeit and replica coins but those are essentially for their own use. It's rare for them to give ordinary collectors access to these and so they aren't likely to be too interested in joining up with collectors even though (or perhaps because!) they have a wealth of knowledge.

There are of course the BANS scattered around the country. But I have to admit that, though invited, I have never attended a meeting. I'm not sure how many collectors are members, but I suspect not a huge proportion.

I suppose that, since we're discussing a problem on ebay (though clearly it exists elsewhere, that's certainly where these things can easily be found) one of the ebay groups might be useful. But as I think I've mentioned before, the one that discusses forgeries (Coin Forgery eBay) appears inactive. Lawrence Chard wrote a jolly good eBay guide on counterfeits, forgeries and the like and another on WRL replicas. There are other sellers who have written guides to spotting fakes but .. who reads them? Us perhaps. But the people who really ought to? Not so much it appears.

Edited September 29, 2010 by TomGoodheart

[scottishmoney 29]

I bought a lot of fake USA large cents last year, seller claimed in advert that they would be stamped "Copy", I never specified anything - they showed up without the copy stamp.

Frankly you would think customs would take a look at them and expel them from the country since they are also faking current legal tender coins.

[1949threepence 3,367]

That's an extreme "worst case" scenario you have painted there, Tom. Whilst I can see where you are coming from, I'm not sure I agree. The number of genuine coins still exceeds the fakes by many orders of magnitude, and it's doubtful whether the forgers will make any significant inroads into the realms of the extremely knowledgeable collector community, without becoming seriously unstuck.

Just beware of ultra perfect coins. I don't think even the most expert forger will be able to effectively emulate 100+ years of natural "uncirculated" ageing.

My two pennuth

Yes, I think that was my frustration talking! But I do feel that if some youngster (and we've had a few as members here) forks out a decent wodge of pocket money on what they think is a representative example of a coin and then a few months later find out at a coin fair or from a dealer that they have been swindled that is quite likely to discourage them. And for the hobbby to continue we need new collectors to take an interest.

And we've seen with slabbing, a proportion of collectors are delegating the identification and authentication of their coins to a third party. It only needs a few replicas to be mis-authenticated and confidence could start to go.

As for knowledgable collector, well there's a coin on eBay at present currently listed at £230. If you're not a knowledgable collector that seems to me to be a lot of dosh to be throwing at a coin! And if you are, why are you bidding on something that shouts "replica!"?

You're right there, Tom. It's the inexperienced rookies that will be stung ~ and it may take then years to find out they have been.

[azda 979]

But, and this is a HUGGGGGGE but, it's not just rookies who are buying/selling fakes, i've pointed out 2 or 3 to a German dealer of British fakes, i've also heard of auction houses listing fakes and then having to pull them when someone else spots them, so it's not just the novice, we're all in this collectively

Edited October 1, 2010 by azda

[niyuco 0]

Even the 20ps aren't safe now:

Replica "undated" 20p

Fairly sure it's illegal to sell (or even own) these in the UK.

[HistoryTreasures 0]

But hey it's fashionable, I'm getting all my Aethelread pennies that are genuine stamped with "REPLICA" just so I can put them on eBay!..

[Peckris 579]

Even the 20ps aren't safe now:

Replica "undated" 20p

Fairly sure it's illegal to sell (or even own) these in the UK.

My thoughts? That COULD be a genuine example, which some clown has stamped COPY into. See how the field around the stamp has been dished, as if the impress was done post-minting? And it's showing through on Liz's hairdo too on the obverse, which makes the whole operation unbelievably clumsy.

[Red Riley 2]

My thoughts? That COULD be a genuine example, which some clown has stamped COPY into. See how the field around the stamp has been dished, as if the impress was done post-minting? And it's showing through on Liz's hairdo too on the obverse, which makes the whole operation unbelievably clumsy.

Incidentally, the last genuine one I noticed on e-bay (last week) went for the princely sum of £51.

'Ah but how the mighty etc...'

[niyuco 0]

My thoughts? That COULD be a genuine example, which some clown has stamped COPY into. See how the field around the stamp has been dished, as if the impress was done post-minting? And it's showing through on Liz's hairdo too on the obverse, which makes the whole operation unbelievably clumsy.

Unlikely as these are coming from China link

The copy stamp in the photo is a ploy to avoid being kicked off Ebay. Often the actual coins are unmarked.

[niyuco 0]

Well, I now have one of these 20p "replicas" (as expected they are not marked "copy").

At first sight they appear to be slightly worn but genuine coins. Good enough that you could probably spend them in a shop without any trouble.

left: fake right: genuine

Under magnification however the differences become obvious. The effigy is weak, particularly the tiara. The surface is pitted, and the edges are rough. Also, at 4.2g they are significantly lighter than the normal weight of 5g.

In short, these are unlikely to fool an experienced collector. The problem, of course, is that most people buying undated 20ps aren't likely to be experienced (or even collectors). I'm fairly sure these are being resold at a high price on Ebay already.