NNC certification

[TomGoodheart 403]

I saw a hammered Chas shilling recently, graded by Ponterio as EF. Now that to me seems unhelpful for a hammered coin.

Yes, you could say that a coin has minimal wear. But hammered coins are also judged on the evenness of the strike and flan thickness and also the fullness (and ideally roundness) of the flan. A fuller coin with some wear and a good portrait may be much more marketable than a virtually 'as struck' coin of uneven shape and with a weak portrait. Toning, which is not accounted for in grading, can make a reasonable coin much more desirable or completely horrible.

This is why slabbing hammered coins seems pointless to me. As a guarantee of autheticity, fine. To protect the coin, OK. But as an indicator as to how desirable a coin will be? No real use at all.

And as for centsles, well, there aren't that many Americans with much experience of the sorts of coins I collect. And he certainly isn't one of them!

[azda 979]

But as has been stated Tom, a slab doesn't guarantee autheticity, because as we've also heard, the Chinese has slabs, and this guy is slabbing his own, which means that slabs are now fallable. Not saying he's selling fakes, but it might be only a matter of time.

[TomGoodheart 403]

Well, I was thinking of the 'certified' slabbers, but even there, grading and so on is only as good as the person or people doing it.

As you'll have gathered Dave, I'm not a fan of slabbing. I feel it's a sign of people being willing to take someone else's word for something rather than using their own knowledge and judgement. I can see it appeals to investors, but for coin collectors, it encourages laziness in my view.

Plus it makes it difficult to see the coin properly, particularly in photographs.

Quite why Americans like the things, I'm not sure. But I guess centsles is just jumping on the bandwagon and giving people what they want. If by slabbing a coin he can get more money I can see why he does it.

Edited October 2, 2010 by TomGoodheart

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

I can see it appeals to investors, but for coin collectors, it encourages laziness in my view.

Thing is Tom, as Bernie and James Workman have just demonstrated, the damn things cost so much these days, that however much one wants to just enjoy one's collection, there is no escaping the fact that the sums of money one has to invest require careful management.

I don't feel the investment aspect of the hobby can be separated from the collection side, it is all part and parcel of the same thing.

One of the lessons I have learned the hard way in life, is that before embarking on any enterprise, one has to have an exit strategy. In my eyes, for many different reasons, some of which have been discussed here, when the time comes to move my collection on, the landscape will be such that their value will be enhanced by being professionally attributed. In the meantime, I can be reasonably confident that I am storing them in the best way that I can to preserve condition, whilst still being able to take them out and enjoy them when I like.

I would counter the argument that it encourages laziness by stating the opposite, it keeps me on my toes because if I get it wrong, I lose a tenner and my coins grade is now forever 'frozen' in time at an unsatisfactory level - until someone takes it out of course.

There are some aspects of slabbing that don't appeal to me, such as this 'best known' nonsense, but overall I'm a major fan.

[TomGoodheart 403]

In my eyes, for many different reasons, some of which have been discussed here, when the time comes to move my collection on, the landscape will be such that their value will be enhanced by being professionally attributed.

Hmm .. so are you saying that you think in time people will be buying the slab, not the coin 400? That confidence in the market will fall so low that people will be wary of buying anything not 'authenticated'? Or ... Just not quite sure why their value will be enhanced over a similar coin of a similar grade?

I would counter the argument that it encourages laziness by stating the opposite, it keeps me on my toes because if I get it wrong, I lose a tenner and my coins grade is now forever 'frozen' in time at an unsatisfactory level - until someone takes it out of course.

But it seems to me that my argument isn't about that. You after all are making an assessment (based I presume on your experience and knowledge) as to whether a coin will 'make the grade'. You are selecting coins you consider to be worth slabbing. You're not being lazy.

What concerns me is the future buyer being swayed purely by the fact that your coin is slabbed, not by the fact that you owned it (and that you are known to be a good judge of a decent coin) or that they like the look of it. That's lazy. Or in fact, when people start looking for the highest graded slab, we're no longer talking numismatics IMHO but a different hobby entirely.

Edited October 3, 2010 by TomGoodheart

[argentumandcoins 70]

In my eyes, for many different reasons, some of which have been discussed here, when the time comes to move my collection on, the landscape will be such that their value will be enhanced by being professionally attributed.

Hmm .. so are you saying that you think in time people will be buying the slab, not the coin 400? That confidence in the market will fall so low that people will be wary of buying anything not 'authenticated'? Or ... Just not quite sure why their value will be enhanced over a similar coin of a similar grade?

I would counter the argument that it encourages laziness by stating the opposite, it keeps me on my toes because if I get it wrong, I lose a tenner and my coins grade is now forever 'frozen' in time at an unsatisfactory level - until someone takes it out of course.

But it seems to me that my argument isn't about that. You after all are making an assessment (based I presume on your experience and knowledge) as to whether a coin will 'make the grade'. You are selecting coins you consider to be worth slabbing. You're not being lazy.

What concerns me is the future buyer being swayed purely by the fact that your coin is slabbed, not by the fact that you owned it (and that you are known to be a good judge of a decent coin) or that they like the look of it. That's lazy. Or in fact, when people start looking for the highest graded slab, we're no longer talking numismatics IMHO but a different hobby entirely.

Correct Tom, if you look back at my earlier post..... it's called a pissing competition!

[Rob 3,152]

Correct Tom, if you look back at my earlier post..... it's called a pissing competition!

In that case I am the headwind. NGC list one 1673 1/2d in MS65 and PCGS two in MS64 as top of the respective population reports. The MS65 and one of the MS64s both now out of the slabs and so safely out of reach of the number chasers. After all, they would be more interested in the pieces of plastic with the number on it - I'll see if I can find them if they haven't been thrown out.

Edited October 3, 2010 by Rob

[argentumandcoins 70]

Correct Tom, if you look back at my earlier post..... it's called a pissing competition!

In that case I am the headwind. NGC list one 1673 1/2d in MS65 and PCGS two in MS64 as top of the respective population reports. The MS65 and one of the MS64s both now out of the slabs and so safely out of reach of the number chasers. After all, they would be more interested in the pieces of plastic with the number on it - I'll see if I can find them if they haven't been thrown out.

Ah, a mahogany man I presume?

I'll give you a trillion for them (Zimbabwe note of course)

[Rob 3,152]

Correct Tom, if you look back at my earlier post..... it's called a pissing competition!

In that case I am the headwind. NGC list one 1673 1/2d in MS65 and PCGS two in MS64 as top of the respective population reports. The MS65 and one of the MS64s both now out of the slabs and so safely out of reach of the number chasers. After all, they would be more interested in the pieces of plastic with the number on it - I'll see if I can find them if they haven't been thrown out.

Ah, a mahogany man I presume?

I'll give you a trillion for them (Zimbabwe note of course)

Better make that two trillion as both had the wrong attribution. The NGC coin was my 1675/3/2 and the PCGS was a 1675/3. Both initially acquired because they were obviously wrong!!

[argentumandcoins 70]

Correct Tom, if you look back at my earlier post..... it's called a pissing competition!

In that case I am the headwind. NGC list one 1673 1/2d in MS65 and PCGS two in MS64 as top of the respective population reports. The MS65 and one of the MS64s both now out of the slabs and so safely out of reach of the number chasers. After all, they would be more interested in the pieces of plastic with the number on it - I'll see if I can find them if they haven't been thrown out.

Ah, a mahogany man I presume?

I'll give you a trillion for them (Zimbabwe note of course)

Better make that two trillion as both had the wrong attribution. The NGC coin was my 1675/3/2 and the PCGS was a 1675/3. Both initially acquired because they were obviously wrong!!

You can keep them then Rob.

If it was the wrong attribution on both they weren't worth the paper they were laser printed on!

Slabs, they should remain where they were intended to be..... on top of graves!

Seriously though, just to make a point on personal taste;

I had a customer that looked at a picture of a slabbed halfcrown and immediately said no. He came and got the coin in hand, moved the slab in the light and then took it because it looked a hundred times better in direct sunlight. Next question was "how do you take them out?"

[VickySilver 836]

And yet, playing the devil's advocate, the entire GB coin market is but a flea in comparison to the enormity of the elephant-sized American market in US coins and their slabbing - remember these are all milled and thus a bit more amenable to TPG grading. I think I am more of a mind that these TPGs run into a bit more of a problem (for many of the reasons discussed)with hammered coins; still I am not sure if they are any worse than some mainline dealers in the UK, names unmentioned, who have made major attribution errors even in the milled series.

Their (TPGs) strength is in the grading of Morgan dollars and the like but some of this may be able to cross into grading 20th or even 19th C. silver GB coins, and they may prove of value here.

Not to resurrect the lustre issue again but I daresay many otherwise uncirculated Vicky bronzes would have retained a much better appearance had they been slabbed instead of being handled by hamfisted dealers (amongst others) who even in recent times seem not averse to holding coins with finger contact to the fields, or by dropping them, or by allowing staple scarring, etc.

IMO, there is no absolute accounting for taste or rightness or wrongness of these slabs.

[azda 979]

Next question was "how do you take them out?"

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Hmm .. so are you saying that you think in time people will be buying the slab, not the coin 400? That confidence in the market will fall so low that people will be wary of buying anything not 'authenticated'? Or ... Just not quite sure why their value will be enhanced over a similar coin of a similar grade?

My answer to that would be that in all likliehood, I will be disposing of them online somehow and I have already proven to my satisfaction, that you get more interest and bids if you have 3rd party attribution, both as to grade and authenticity. It may well be that the bidders are guilty of the crimes you outline, but if I get a higher price am I bothered ? There are over 13,000 UK coins in CGS slabs now and with everything else that is going on in the hobby allied to the long term storage benefits it makes sense to me. Also, I get a lot of fun in trying to get the best grades out of the bastards.

Correct Tom, if you look back at my earlier post..... it's called a pissing competition!

I do agree that this 'finest known' business, the league tables etc is a nonsense, but that's not really anything to do with the decision to slab or not slab, it's a sideshow or depending on how cynical you are, a racket. I've got one and you wouldn't believe the value they've assigned to it. The point about not looking their best in a slab is also valid, but in my opinion, outweighed by the fact that I can look at it as often as I like without breathing all over it. People do silly things with slabs, like the man on ebay who has a load of silver proof Britannia's which cost around £65 from the mint, slabbed by PCGS for sale at £200

Not to resurrect the lustre issue again but I daresay many otherwise uncirculated Vicky bronzes would have retained a much better appearance had they been slabbed instead of being handled by hamfisted dealers (amongst others) who even in recent times seem not averse to holding coins with finger contact to the fields, or by dropping them, or by allowing staple scarring, etc.

IMO, there is no absolute accounting for taste or rightness or wrongness of these slabs.

Resurrect it as often as you like sir, if you collect bronze it's pretty fundamental and I see you concur with my sentiments as to the protection afforded to lustrous bronze by a slab

[Peter 615]

I agree with Tom's thoughts on eye appeal,roundness of the flan etc....remember every hammered coin is different.

I really don't believe you can grade hammered because an as struck may still look awfull....I have a nice early ed1 Bury penny which was renowned for a weak strike and bought from a well known dealer....I nearly returned it until I researched it...Then comes Fine silver issue of EdV1 and what an improvement.Liz coins are reknowned for a weak bust....and most Charles 1 are clipped....research your market and only buy the things you like cos if you don't like them the market won't like them.....suppose it will save on the inheritance tax though BTW I've just heard child allowance is to be stopped for higher earners....why not stop it and if you can't afford kids don't have them.

[azda 979]

BTW I've just heard child allowance is to be stopped for higher earners....why not stop it and if you can't afford kids don't have them.

[argentumandcoins 70]

Come now gentlemen, this is a coin forum not a political debating arena!

[azda 979]

Come now gentlemen, this is a coin forum not a political debating arena!

But it does involve coin John