1882 London Mint penny ?

[1949threepence 3,367]

Sometimes I think London mint 1882 pennies (if authentic) in high grade may be just as rare as the '33. And IMO would crush for real world value those idiotic narrow date buns.

How many London Mint 1882 pennies would you say have survived (all grades)?

Freeman has them as R17 (16 to 50 in existence). That was in 1985. Given their unique status, there's likely still the same number now, but most of those will be in private collections, which will probably not see the light of day for a very long time, if ever. That includes the prime example Bernie showed us a few weeks back.

16 to 50 is a fairly wide estimated range. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say less than 40.

I bet there's maybe 10 which will come up for sale in the next 3 years, say ~ and the sales points could be anywhere. Mind, most of them will be flat discs.

Edited October 26, 2010 by 1949threepence

[Peckris 579]

Sometimes I think London mint 1882 pennies (if authentic) in high grade may be just as rare as the '33. And IMO would crush for real world value those idiotic narrow date buns.

How many London Mint 1882 pennies would you say have survived (all grades)?

Freeman has them as R17 (16 to 50 in existence). That was in 1985. Given their unique status, there's likely still the same number now, but most of those will be in private collections, which will probably not see the light of day for a very long time, if ever. That includes the prime example Bernie showed us a few weeks back.

16 to 50 is a fairly wide estimated range. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say less than 40.

I bet there's maybe 10 which will come up for sale in the next 3 years, say ~ and the sales points could be anywhere. Mind, most of them will be flat discs.

In that case, I'd venture that high grade examples will certainly be rarer than 1933s!

[VickySilver 830]

Yes, my thoughts - the 1882 London mint penny in VF or above is prohibitively rare. The discs and aFair pieces would make up the bulk of extant specimens I would imagine. The total based on sales in recent years would be a hazard guess of 40 or so also in my opinion. As I have hinted earlier, I am not at all sure these are of one obverse and reverse pairing and reminds me of ancients where people think only one ot two die pairs until new combos are discovered...

[1949threepence 3,367]

Sometimes I think London mint 1882 pennies (if authentic) in high grade may be just as rare as the '33. And IMO would crush for real world value those idiotic narrow date buns.

How many London Mint 1882 pennies would you say have survived (all grades)?

Freeman has them as R17 (16 to 50 in existence). That was in 1985. Given their unique status, there's likely still the same number now, but most of those will be in private collections, which will probably not see the light of day for a very long time, if ever. That includes the prime example Bernie showed us a few weeks back.

16 to 50 is a fairly wide estimated range. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say less than 40.

I bet there's maybe 10 which will come up for sale in the next 3 years, say ~ and the sales points could be anywhere. Mind, most of them will be flat discs.

In that case, I'd venture that high grade examples will certainly be rarer than 1933s!

There's definitely an impeccable logic in suggesting that high grade London Mint 1882's will indeed, be rarer than 1933's. Something probably not often thought about.

[1949threepence 3,367]

Yes, my thoughts - the 1882 London mint penny in VF or above is prohibitively rare. The discs and aFair pieces would make up the bulk of extant specimens I would imagine. The total based on sales in recent years would be a hazard guess of 40 or so also in my opinion. As I have hinted earlier, I am not at all sure these are of one obverse and reverse pairing and reminds me of ancients where people think only one ot two die pairs until new combos are discovered...

Nor me. Although given the obviously limited run, I'd say it only one or two die pairs is more probable than not.

We just don't know, do we

[Beebman 2]

Sometimes I think London mint 1882 pennies (if authentic) in high grade may be just as rare as the '33. And IMO would crush for real world value those idiotic narrow date buns.

How many London Mint 1882 pennies would you say have survived (all grades)?

Freeman has them as R17 (16 to 50 in existence). That was in 1985. Given their unique status, there's likely still the same number now, but most of those will be in private collections, which will probably not see the light of day for a very long time, if ever. That includes the prime example Bernie showed us a few weeks back.

16 to 50 is a fairly wide estimated range. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say less than 40.

I bet there's maybe 10 which will come up for sale in the next 3 years, say ~ and the sales points could be anywhere. Mind, most of them will be flat discs.

Gouby quotes R9 for the 1882 London penny which is "2-9 possibly known". Although he doesn't say exactly how he comes by this estimate I wonder if he doesn't count the flat discs?

[niyuco 0]

Gouby quotes R9 for the 1882 London penny which is "2-9 possibly known". Although he doesn't say exactly how he comes by this estimate I wonder if he doesn't count the flat discs?

Listed as '8 known' in his new book. I would imagine only the clearly identifiable examples. Beware of the Ebay offerings as the vast majority are just wishful thinking.

p.s. not convinced there is such a thing as a London mint 1882. More likely somebody at the Heaton mint forgot to add the 'H' to the die.

[1949threepence 3,367]

Sometimes I think London mint 1882 pennies (if authentic) in high grade may be just as rare as the '33. And IMO would crush for real world value those idiotic narrow date buns.

How many London Mint 1882 pennies would you say have survived (all grades)?

Freeman has them as R17 (16 to 50 in existence). That was in 1985. Given their unique status, there's likely still the same number now, but most of those will be in private collections, which will probably not see the light of day for a very long time, if ever. That includes the prime example Bernie showed us a few weeks back.

16 to 50 is a fairly wide estimated range. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say less than 40.

I bet there's maybe 10 which will come up for sale in the next 3 years, say ~ and the sales points could be anywhere. Mind, most of them will be flat discs.

Gouby quotes R9 for the 1882 London penny which is "2-9 possibly known". Although he doesn't say exactly how he comes by this estimate I wonder if he doesn't count the flat discs?

That is a distinct possibility.

[Bernie 203]

Sometimes I think London mint 1882 pennies (if authentic) in high grade may be just as rare as the '33. And IMO would crush for real world value those idiotic narrow date buns.

How many London Mint 1882 pennies would you say have survived (all grades)?

Freeman has them as R17 (16 to 50 in existence). That was in 1985. Given their unique status, there's likely still the same number now, but most of those will be in private collections, which will probably not see the light of day for a very long time, if ever. That includes the prime example Bernie showed us a few weeks back.

To my knowledge there is about eight graded Fine to UNC, there are more in just identifiable to Near fine, a probable twenty specimens in total that have so far come to light.

16 to 50 is a fairly wide estimated range. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say less than 40.

I bet there's maybe 10 which will come up for sale in the next 3 years, say ~ and the sales points could be anywhere. Mind, most of them will be flat discs.

Gouby quotes R9 for the 1882 London penny which is "2-9 possibly known". Although he doesn't say exactly how he comes by this estimate I wonder if he doesn't count the flat discs?

That is a distinct possibility.

[Bernie 203]

Sometimes I think London mint 1882 pennies (if authentic) in high grade may be just as rare as the '33. And IMO would crush for real world value those idiotic narrow date buns.

How many London Mint 1882 pennies would you say have survived (all grades)?

Freeman has them as R17 (16 to 50 in existence). That was in 1985. Given their unique status, there's likely still the same number now, but most of those will be in private collections, which will probably not see the light of day for a very long time, if ever. That includes the prime example Bernie showed us a few weeks back.

To my knowledge there is about eight graded Fine to UNC, there are more in just identifiable to Near fine, a probable twenty specimens in total that have so far come to light.

16 to 50 is a fairly wide estimated range. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say less than 40.

I bet there's maybe 10 which will come up for sale in the next 3 years, say ~ and the sales points could be anywhere. Mind, most of them will be flat discs.

Gouby quotes R9 for the 1882 London penny which is "2-9 possibly known". Although he doesn't say exactly how he comes by this estimate I wonder if he doesn't count the flat discs?

That is a distinct possibility.

To my knowledge there is about eight graded Fine to UNC, there are more in just identifiable to Near fine, a probable twenty specimens in total that have so far come to light.

[1949threepence 3,367]

To my knowledge there is about eight graded Fine to UNC, there are more in just identifiable to Near fine, a probable twenty specimens in total that have so far come to light.

Thanks for the info

[Peckris2 0]

p.s. not convinced there is such a thing as a London mint 1882. More likely somebody at the Heaton mint forgot to add the 'H' to the die.

LOL. Highly unlikely - impossible in fact! Heaton were supplied with their dies by the Mint, which was by far the most efficient way of doing it.

[scott 144]

and why would you mint 20-100 coins in one place and not the other? lol

[Peckris2 0]

and why would you mint 20-100 coins in one place and not the other? lol

Testing would be my guess. Wasn't it around that year that they introduced electronic equipment to the Mint? Certainly from 1883 onwards there is a great consistency to the Mint output with very little variation in dies used and virtually none at all in the relative position of date numerals. To achieve that it would suggest they used a new technology. Quite possibly they farmed out the production of 1882 pennies to Heatons while they installed new machinery at the Mint, and tested the new equipment with a small run of pennies.

[niyuco 0]

LOL. Highly unlikely - impossible in fact! Heaton were supplied with their dies by the Mint, which was by far the most efficient way of doing it.

The mint mark was added by hand to the working dies, which is why they are often misaligned. So it's entirely possible that somebody could forget to add it.

I see no evidence for a Royal Mint penny. The mint was out of action for most of 1882 as it was being upgraded. A few million silver coins were produced at the beginning of 1882, but nothing else - one of the reasons for the upgrade was the inability to handle more than one type of metal at the same time. For that reason I suggest Heaton mint as the most likely source. But I would be interested to hear evidence to the contrary.

[1949threepence 3,367]

p.s. not convinced there is such a thing as a London mint 1882. More likely somebody at the Heaton mint forgot to add the 'H' to the die.

LOL. Highly unlikely - impossible in fact! Heaton were supplied with their dies by the Mint, which was by far the most efficient way of doing it.

and why would you mint 20-100 coins in one place and not the other? lol

Testing would be my guess. Wasn't it around that year that they introduced electronic equipment to the Mint? Certainly from 1883 onwards there is a great consistency to the Mint output with very little variation in dies used and virtually none at all in the relative position of date numerals. To achieve that it would suggest they used a new technology. Quite possibly they farmed out the production of 1882 pennies to Heatons while they installed new machinery at the Mint, and tested the new equipment with a small run of pennies.

The mint mark was added by hand to the working dies, which is why they are often misaligned. So it's entirely possible that somebody could forget to add it.

I see no evidence for a Royal Mint penny. The mint was out of action for most of 1882 as it was being upgraded. A few million silver coins were produced at the beginning of 1882, but nothing else - one of the reasons for the upgrade was the inability to handle more than one type of metal at the same time. For that reason I suggest Heaton mint as the most likely source. But I would be interested to hear evidence to the contrary.

Very interesting debate. In fact both theories sound equally plausible to me. Sadly, we will never know, as all hard evidence has been lost in the mists of time.

[Beebman 2]

I've found in The Times archive (to which I've online access at work) is an article dated Wednesday January 10th 1883 in which a summary of the work undertaken at the Mint is given. The new machinery consisted of 3 vertical engines of maximum 250 hp power and 14 new 'Uhlhorn' lever presses turning out 90-100 coins per minute "and very few brockages". The cost was £30,000. There was also much building work to enlarge the premises.

However the most relevant piece of information to this thread is:

"These building operations were begun on February 1st, 1882, from which date the coinage was entirely suspended till the alterations were finished."

No mention is made of any arrangements of minting coins anywhere else while the work took place.

[Red Riley 2]

They would, I would guess, have had a pilot plant on which to produce small runs for testing, proofs etc. and as this was likely to have been in another part of the building from where the main presses were being installed it is quite possible that this operation continued. From the Times extract, it seems likely that each of the new presses had its own steam engine and that of the pilot plant would have had its own, smaller engine, if it was not manually driven. Also, the production of dies is a completely separate process and I can't see why this would have been affected by the installation.

[Bernie 203]

They would, I would guess, have had a pilot plant on which to produce small runs for testing, proofs etc. and as this was likely to have been in another part of the building from where the main presses were being installed it is quite possible that this operation continued. From the Times extract, it seems likely that each of the new presses had its own steam engine and that of the pilot plant would have had its own, smaller engine, if it was not manually driven. Also, the production of dies is a completely separate process and I can't see why this would have been affected by the installation.

The dies could have been made in 1881, followed by a test run. The dies, Freeman reference obverse 11 and reverse N were used on some of the pennies struck in 1883 at the Royal Mint, although the royal mint have no record of pennies or any other denomination struck by them in 1882. One example of an 1882 penny was found in Australia and brought to England in 1967. This coin was described as near FDC, proof looking. This would fit well with a small test run of the dies. (SNC Sept.1967)

[1949threepence 3,367]

I've found in The Times archive (to which I've online access at work) is an article dated Wednesday January 10th 1883 in which a summary of the work undertaken at the Mint is given. The new machinery consisted of 3 vertical engines of maximum 250 hp power and 14 new 'Uhlhorn' lever presses turning out 90-100 coins per minute "and very few brockages". The cost was £30,000. There was also much building work to enlarge the premises.

However the most relevant piece of information to this thread is:

"These building operations were begun on February 1st, 1882, from which date the coinage was entirely suspended till the alterations were finished."

No mention is made of any arrangements of minting coins anywhere else while the work took place.

If you could do a screenshot of the article and upload it to an image hosting site like Imageshack, it would make a very interesting and historically significant piece to link to, and view in its entirety.

[niyuco 0]

The best source I have is the book, 'A New history of the Royal Mint' by C Challis. Unfortunately it is out of print, but here is a relevant quote:

"On 22 July Fremantle proposed in a report to the Treasury that the

operations of coinage should be suspended from 1 February 1882 and

that, so far as proved necessary, the remainder of the year should be

devoted to the reconstruction of the buildings and the renewal of

machinery. By the due date a stock of £489,000 in silver coin had been

built up, concentration on silver being made possible by the placing of a

contract with Heaton's for fifty tons of pennies, halfpennies and

Farthings."

Even better would be the Royal Mint's annual reports from 1881 and 1882, but my local library certainly doesn't have those. Possibly the larger libraries in London would have them.

[Peckris2 0]

The best source I have is the book, 'A New history of the Royal Mint' by C Challis. Unfortunately it is out of print, but here is a relevant quote:

"On 22 July Fremantle proposed in a report to the Treasury that the

operations of coinage should be suspended from 1 February 1882 and

that, so far as proved necessary, the remainder of the year should be

devoted to the reconstruction of the buildings and the renewal of

machinery. By the due date a stock of £489,000 in silver coin had been

built up, concentration on silver being made possible by the placing of a

contract with Heaton's for fifty tons of pennies, halfpennies and

Farthings."

Even better would be the Royal Mint's annual reports from 1881 and 1882, but my local library certainly doesn't have those. Possibly the larger libraries in London would have them.

Fascinating, Jim. Though it could be speculated (and that's all it is) that in order to test a small run of a new set of dies for bronze, only one small corner of the Mint premises would have been needed, especially if all that was produced was a handful of coins.

The only comparison would be the time that the Mint was entirely rebuilt for the Great Recoinage of 1816, but then of course, there was no need to 'Suspend' operations, as Boulton's Soho mint was handling the copper, and an ungodly mix of silver coins was in circulation, ranging from the great production runs of 1758 and 1787, the counter-marked dollars and Spanish reales, the Bank of England token issues, etc etc.

The next great imterruption was the move to Llantrisant and even as recently as that, we are not sure exactly what the London Mint retained, and what Llantrisant took over, between 1967 and 1971. So clarifying the position in 1882 - no chance!

[scott 144]

so they upgraded the mint in 1882, but it doesnt say if they minted anything.

but Heaton did miss out the H before was it 1876?

[Beebman 2]

so they upgraded the mint in 1882, but it doesnt say if they minted anything.

but Heaton did miss out the H before was it 1876?

Apparently the second part of the James Workman sale will include an 1876 'no-H' penny so it'll be interesting to the see the scan of it (although Bernie did suggest that it might be the result of a clogged die).

[davidrj 194]

so they upgraded the mint in 1882, but it doesnt say if they minted anything.

but Heaton did miss out the H before was it 1876?

Apparently the second part of the James Workman sale will include an 1876 'no-H' penny so it'll be interesting to the see the scan of it (although Bernie did suggest that it might be the result of a clogged die).

Wide or narrow date? Is this the Bamford one illustrated in Michael Gouby's book>

David