Weakly Struck Coins

[RobJ 0]

I would like to request some information on weakly struck coins if I may?

Are there any certain years in particular, or denominations within a certain period in particular that I should be aware of?

I do know that George V coinage suffered greatly with weakly struck coins. In particular the years encompassing World War I and just beyond.

Also, the first coinage of Elizabeth II in 1953 suffered with weakly struck coins, but perhaps that is to do more with the low relief of the designs as opposed to weak striking?

This may sound like an elementary question but would weakly struck coins affect all denominations within a certain year or period ?

That is to say, would I find for example, that all of the Copper coinage to be weakly struck but the Silver coinage to be fully struck up? Or vice versa? Or even Perhaps a mix throughout all denominations with some fully struck up and others not?

Any help or information on this subject is greatly appreciated.

[Peckris 579]

I would like to request some information on weakly struck coins if I may?

Are there any certain years in particular, or denominations within a certain period in particular that I should be aware of?

I do know that George V coinage suffered greatly with weakly struck coins. In particular the years encompassing World War I and just beyond.

Also, the first coinage of Elizabeth II in 1953 suffered with weakly struck coins, but perhaps that is to do more with the low relief of the designs as opposed to weak striking?

This may sound like an elementary question but would weakly struck coins affect all denominations within a certain year or period ?

That is to say, would I find for example, that all of the Copper coinage to be weakly struck but the Silver coinage to be fully struck up? Or vice versa? Or even Perhaps a mix throughout all denominations with some fully struck up and others not?

Any help or information on this subject is greatly appreciated.

That's not a subject that's been explored in any great depth, to date - good one, for raising it!

There are many causes.

• 1953 portraits, for example, are the victim of poor design, which was partly corrected the same year, but fully corrected in 1954. It applied to all denominations.

• 1918/1919 H & KN pennies suffered from worn dies continuing in service for far too long : this is noticeable due to the varied 'strike' that you see, ranging from quite well struck up, to very weak. Other denominations the same years weren't affected.

• The reverse of Geo V first series pennies and halfpennies suffer, especially Britannia's upper, due to the strength and depth of the obverse portrait taking metal away from the reverse design, which itself was unprotected by almost non-existent rims. This is a peculiarity of that series.

• On any coins prior to the machine age (1797), individual coins can be weakly struck due to poor milling/hammering techniques.

• The composition of the metal can affect the strike : silver is softer than cupro-nickel for example, copper is softer than bronze, and the silver alloy introduced in 1920 was especially notorious to begin with. This means that defects in the strike can show up more on softer metals, but conversely, harder metals cause faster die wear which would then affect those coins if not spotted.

• Sometimes the effect is imbalance between obverse and reverse designs : from 1920 - 1925, circulated halfcrowns are found with the obverse at least a whole grade lower than the reverse.

So as you see, there are no factors which would affect ALL denominations, except where there is a weakly struck design as in 1953. And some coins are often found weakly struck with no particular explanation as to why - the reverse of 1907 pennies, for example.

I'm sure if you researched it, you could come up with still more causes. One thing's certain - well struck coins will always command a premium over weak ones.

[1949threepence 3,367]

In addition to the excellent & very comprehensive reply supplied by Peck, I'd also add that die problems lead to some coins showing evidence of a poor strike in certain areas of the coin. For example, I've got a near uncriculated 1885 penny, which shows Britannia's fingers as a worn down blur (ie: no fingers visible) and an 1891 penny, in which the "9" in the date appears to taper off to nothing, long before it should. See pics.

[Red Riley 2]

I think you will also find that there is no concensus on bad/worst years! Personally, I'm not convinced that the Heaton and King's Norton pennies were much, if any, worse than those produced by the Royal Mint during the period 1915-20. Quite the worst obverse strike I have ever seen was on a 1918 Royal Mint penny which had virtually no detail whatever but was still a strong enough strike to rob some metal from the reverse. I can really only speak from the point of view of pennies, but I believe halfpennies were affected too and no doubt somebody else can tell you about farthings.

The last incarnation of the bun penny obverse (1881-94) was struck in very low relief and can appear very weak towards the end of a die's life

It is also my experience that silver produced during the First World War can be quite weak, especially round the beading but I freely admit that not everyone agrees with me.

Interesting topic, thanks for posting it.

[RobJ 0]

Thank you very much Peckris, 1949 and Red. Your replies have once again proved very informative and most helpful.

I have been looking on various Dealers websites and I have noticed various coins labled as 'Weak Strike.' Which is what originally prompted me to enquire about this subject as I thought that it was important to try and have an understanding of it.

I did read in Red's book on Grading that the parts of a coin which are affected by a weak strike are also often the places which are prone to natural wear on a coin. Which I found most interesting.

As I imagined, this is quite a deep and broad ranging subject with many factors and more research is definitely required.

It is one however that I personally find most interesting.

[scott 144]

you are also excluding the george V farthings.

i have a well struck and a poor struck 1918 all in EF+

[RobJ 0]

Thanks for the information and the images for comparison Scott.

[Peckris 579]

I have been looking on various Dealers websites and I have noticed various coins labled as 'Weak Strike.'

Do be vigilant Rob - most dealers are pretty honest (excluding eBay) but you might find the occasional rogue passing off a coin that's a grade lower than his advertised grade, as a 'weak strike'. Always buy from someone who gives you a no-quibble money-back guarantee if not satisfied, if you can't view the coin 'in hand', that is.

you are also excluding the george V farthings.

Farthings suffer less from the problem IMO. They are small enough that the imbalance between obverse and reverse designs is much less pronounced than with the pennies and halfpennies, and have a proportionately much larger rim protecting the reverse. Having said that, there are some poor portraits, but mostly between 1918 and 1925 in my experience. Generally though, farthings are found much better than their larger bronze siblings.

[RobJ 0]

Do be vigilant Rob - most dealers are pretty honest (excluding eBay) but you might find the occasional rogue passing off a coin that's a grade lower than his advertised grade, as a 'weak strike'. Always buy from someone who gives you a no-quibble money-back guarantee if not satisfied, if you can't view the coin 'in hand', that is.

Thanks Peckris.

I couldn't agree with you more.

As I said in an earlier post, I found it interesting that a weakly struck coin often exhibits the weak strike on the places which are prone to natural wear.

It had also crossed my mind that a scenario may occur where someone knowingly may describe and sell a coin with natural wear as a coin which was weakly struck. Which is the precise reason that I started this thread to try to obtain some knowledge and information on this subject.

I am a great believer in thinking that if you don't know something, then ask! After all it costs nothing to ask, and in this particular case it may actually save you some money.

[1949threepence 3,367]

It is also my experience that silver produced during the First World War can be quite weak, especially round the beading but I freely admit that not everyone agrees with me.

I agree with you in terms of WW1 silver strikes being relatively weak. When I was in the midst of assembling my shilling collection, I found it literally impossible to get specimens from 1915 and 1916, with decent hair detail ~ despite the fact they were otherwise totally BU. Yet I have BU 1912 & 1919 (either side of WW1), with fantastic hair detail.

I'm sure there are examples from those two years with good hair detail, but I never encountered them.

Do be vigilant Rob - most dealers are pretty honest (excluding eBay) but you might find the occasional rogue passing off a coin that's a grade lower than his advertised grade, as a 'weak strike'. Always buy from someone who gives you a no-quibble money-back guarantee if not satisfied, if you can't view the coin 'in hand', that is.

There are some very honest dealers on e bay as well. Indeed, many double up as non internet dealers, and/or internet dealers totally independent of e bay.

That said, you're right in that dealing with e bay sellers, can be like dealing with pirates on the high seas. Some absolute gems exist out there, which can be bought for next to nothing. Conversely, there are those who will employ all manner of trickery to sell you a coin that is much poorer than made out. The point you make about a no quibble money back guarantee is a very valid one. We must be especially wary of the traders who have a "no returns" policy.

Thanks Peckris.

I couldn't agree with you more.

It had also crossed my mind that a scenario may occur where someone knowingly may describe and sell a coin with natural wear as a coin which was weakly struck. Which is the precise reason that I started this thread to try to obtain some knowledge and information on this subject.

You will actually get to learn quite quickly, Rob, the pitfalls you need to look out for. This is particularly the case with a series you have been collecting for some time. Occasionally, you will get burned, but with experience, the bargains you get will more than compensate for the losses.

[Red Riley 2]

We must be especially wary of the traders who have a "no returns" policy.

E-bay make this worse by having 'no returns' as a default and it took me a lot of investigation to discover how to change it. Most sellers who have a numerically low feedback figure are in the same boat and just don't bother. Where you want to be really careful are sellers with e.g. 1000+ who still retain it, especially when they are using a P.O. Box number; my advice is, never buy from these people. Another tip is high feedback total and bloody awful photographs; that ought to start alarm bells ringing.

[Peckris 579]

When I was in the midst of assembling my shilling collection, I found it literally impossible to get specimens from 1915 and 1916, with decent hair detail ~ despite the fact they were otherwise totally BU. Yet I have BU 1912 & 1919 (either side of WW1), with fantastic hair detail.

I'm sure there are examples from those two years with good hair detail, but I never encountered them.

See my own example (below) - it's obviously been buffed at some point, and there is some rubbing to prevent it being classed as Unc, but you'll see there is still some good hair detail. Strangely, this has always been my experience for first issue shillings.

There are some very honest dealers on e bay as well. Indeed, many double up as non internet dealers, and/or internet dealers totally independent of e bay.

Yes, my phrasing was not exactly FDC - I didn't mean most dealers on eBay were crooks, just that it's that much harder to say "most" are honest as you can in the offline world.

[RobJ 0]

You will actually get to learn quite quickly, Rob, the pitfalls you need to look out for. This is particularly the case with a series you have been collecting for some time. Occasionally, you will get burned, but with experience, the bargains you get will more than compensate for the losses.

I think that with anything new there is a learning curve, often a steep one to begin with, but hopefully I am starting to get there.

I am trying to look at as many coins as I can, in as many different denomonations and in as many different grades that I can. That way I can hopefully start to attain the knowledge that I will need to have when considering my coin purchases.

I think that at some point in our lives we will all be burnt in one way or another, but hopefully by learning what I can and if I continue asking the questions that I need answering, the blow will not be as severe as it may have been.

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

There is quite a lot to be said for concentrating your efforts on a particular series, because they all have their own peculiarities, rarities and grading foibles. I'm a penny collector and I could easily make an arse of myself with a shilling for example. (I can still do it with pennies)

Having said that, I do appreciate that when you are starting out the temptation is to dart about exploring.

Also needs to be said that in my opinion, the 'safest' beginners coin is the sovereign.

[Peter 615]

When I bought gold a few years back Sovs were £60/£80 so £200+ today doesn't tempt me.Maybe write down a series and collect the best you can afford....pennies have gone potty over the last year or so...halfcrowns seem a good bet with up to 1967 easy 1903/05 will cause a dent in your savings but will appreciate..I managed to pick up G V 2/6's in high grade for a low price

[RobJ 0]

Thanks £400 and Peter for your advice.

I think that it is more of a case that I am trying to gain experience in trying to look at as many coins as I can. To me it makes sense to have a good rounded knowledge of coins which will hopefully hold me in good stead for the future.

I am still fully undecided in which area to concentrate on or specialise in as of yet. I am still going with the idea of trying to obtain one of each Denomonation for the issue year for each Monarch. I personally like that idea and I think that it will make the basis of a nice collection.

However, I have also taken a shine to Copper coins, Farthings and Pennies in particular. So I'm trying to purchase nice examples as and when I can see them and afford them, and also try to learn as much as I can along the way, as I do think that my collection in the end will predominantly Copper based.

Sovereigns are not something that I have considered if I'm honest. To me I personally couldn't justify price in buying them. I know that with them being Gold they will appreciate, or at least hold their own in the future, but I think that Sovereigns are more of an investment puchase. And as I intend my collection to be for my personal pleasure rather than investment, Gold coins of any description are not an option for me. However I do totally understand your thoughts on that £400.

[DaveG38 408]

When I bought gold a few years back Sovs were £60/£80 so £200+ today doesn't tempt me.Maybe write down a series and collect the best you can afford....pennies have gone potty over the last year or so...halfcrowns seem a good bet with up to 1967 easy 1903/05 will cause a dent in your savings but will appreciate..I managed to pick up G V 2/6's in high grade for a low price

I'm tempted to go from coin collecting to coin investing in this reply, but in my opinion, the rise in the value of gold arises from a number of factors. Firstly, the new wealth in China, South America and India is driving the thirst for gold. Secondly, gold production is pretty much at a steady state and can't be ramped up (like oil) to meet demand. Thus there are more buyers for gold than there is gold available leading to a bull market.

The final point is very contentious, but the US economy is in a dire state, owing or liable for roughly a hundred and fifty trillion dollars on even the best estimates. At the moment the economy has nowhere to go. Unemployment is rising, mortgage foreclosures are expected to rise dramatically and government spending is totally out of control. The government is unable to raise the money it wants through additional taxation and it knows it cannot go on borrowing, so it only has one option, which is to allow the Fed to print money and let inflation dig it out of its debt. Those with any savvy see this for what it is - hence the flight to gold. And its going to get worse (gold price higher) before it gets better. That's one reason why I have bought into gold in recent years. Even the gold I bought at £180 per sovereign is currently showing a paper profit. I'm betting on doubling over the next few years, but don't anybody act on my advice!! I'm not a financial advisor.

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Yeah.

At the end of september I decided it might not be a bad idea to lay in a few 1OZ silver Britannia's, so I started bidding £21.

I got 5 but the pressure was definitely upwards, I missed out on about 20.

Now you can't get one for £30.

And that's happened in just over a month.

[1949threepence 3,367]

You will actually get to learn quite quickly, Rob, the pitfalls you need to look out for. This is particularly the case with a series you have been collecting for some time. Occasionally, you will get burned, but with experience, the bargains you get will more than compensate for the losses.

I think that with anything new there is a learning curve, often a steep one to begin with, but hopefully I am starting to get there.

I am trying to look at as many coins as I can, in as many different denomonations and in as many different grades that I can. That way I can hopefully start to attain the knowledge that I will need to have when considering my coin purchases.

I think that at some point in our lives we will all be burnt in one way or another, but hopefully by learning what I can and if I continue asking the questions that I need answering, the blow will not be as severe as it may have been.

It is a steep learning curve, initially. But if you have always been interested in coins, you learn very quickly, and almost get an instinct for what is genuinely good stuff/dross, and can see through window dressing very quickly (usually anyway )

[RobJ 0]

It is a steep learning curve, initially. But if you have always been interested in coins, you learn very quickly, and almost get an instinct for what is genuinely good stuff/dross, and can see through window dressing very quickly (usually anyway )

Hopefully I am starting to get to that stage now. I think that I have a decent knowledge of Decimal coins as I have sifted through and collected them for some years now. Which also gives me a fair idea as to grading.

I do think that it is an advantage over starting to collect coins from a completely blank slate with no knowledge or experience whatsoever.

I just need to gain some experience in Pre Decimal coins now, but I am in no rush. I believe that before you can run, you first need to learn to walk.

[Peckris 579]

I just need to gain some experience in Pre Decimal coins now, but I am in no rush. I believe that before you can run, you first need to learn to walk.

Very true. Derek's Standard Guide To Grading British Coins is a very good place to start, as it will help you loads when you come to assess any coins you see, and make good decisions. It's got pictures in 4 states of preservation of all major obverse and reverse types of the machine age.

[RobJ 0]

Very true. Derek's Standard Guide To Grading British Coins is a very good place to start, as it will help you loads when you come to assess any coins you see, and make good decisions. It's got pictures in 4 states of preservation of all major obverse and reverse types of the machine age.

That is such an excellent book! I have found that it has been truly invaluable to me.

I usually read the book and study the pictures carefully before I go off on a coin hunting expedition, that way I find that the information stays quite clear in my mind. Then I find that when I do look at coins I can make a fairly quick, if undereducated, assesment just by looking for the important points mentioned in the book and if anything stands out to take a closer look at the coin.

I am also learning not to just instantly disregard a coin purely on it's condition, but to also carefully check the date of the coin and try to recall any information or rarity or varietys as well.

It may not be the best way to go about things, but I have found that by doing that it has helped me a great deal and I am slowly starting to not only understand Pre Decimal coins much better but to also have a fairly good idea as to the grade of them.

[Red Riley 2]

Thanks guys.

The way you use it, RobJ is exactly as I envisaged - it is a learning aid and not a bible.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Red Riley

[RobJ 0]

Thanks guys.

The way you use it, RobJ is exactly as I envisaged - it is a learning aid and not a bible.

Thanks Red.

I am glad that I am using it in the way that you envisaged. To me it just made sense to use it in that way.

[1949threepence 3,367]

Can I just add that I never knew about the pre 1881 convex shield on bun pennies before I read Derek's book. Indeed, all the advice on the bun obs and revs have proved incredibly useful for me in judging the grading of these pennies.