1937 Penny Die Variations

[RobJ 0]

I was wondering if anyone could give me a little help and answer a couple of questions to do with the 1937 Penny Die Variations please.

As I understand it there are 2 OBV types and two REV types:

OBV 1 - The upright limb of the 'P' in IMP points directly at a Border Tooth.

OBV 2 - The upright limb of the 'P' in IMP points slightly to the right of a Border Tooth.

REV A - The upright limb of the 'E' in Penny points directly at a Border Tooth.

REV B - The upright limb of the 'E' in Penny points between Border Teeth.

Are there any combinations that are scacer or rarer than the others? If so do they command a premium over the others?

Does this affect only the Proof Issues for that year or the standard Circulation Issues, or both?

Any help and advice is as always greatly appreciated.

[azda 979]

I was wondering if anyone could give me a little help and answer a couple of questions to do with the 1937 Penny Die Variations please.

As I understand it there are 2 OBV types and two REV types:

OBV 1 - The upright limb of the 'P' in IMP points directly at a Border Tooth.

OBV 2 - The upright limb of the 'P' in IMP points slightly to the right of a Border Tooth.

REV A - The upright limb of the 'E' in Penny points directly at a Border Tooth.

REV B - The upright limb of the 'E' in Penny points between Border Teeth.

Are there any combinations that are scacer or rarer than the others? If so do they command a premium over the others?

Does this affect only the Proof Issues for that year or the standard Circulation Issues, or both?

Any help and advice is as always greatly appreciated.

Here's my 37 Proof, in 2 posts, hi res pics

[azda 979]

REV

[AardHawk 73]

V.R.Courts survey published in Coin Monthly Oct 1972 may answer your question. He does not use Freeman's notation so don't confuse his notation with the one you are using. I also believe that the £1050 that he refers to is the total value of coins of all dates that he used to extract his sample from.

Court's 1A (Freeman's 2A) must be extremely scarce if it exists at all. I keep looking!

Freeman only records proofs for his 1A & 1B and assigns a rarity of R8 (12,001-20,000) & R10 3,501-7,000) to them.

[RobJ 0]

Here's my 37 Proof, in 2 posts, hi res pics

Thanks for those images Azda.

That is one stunning Penny that you have there!

[RobJ 0]

V.R.Courts survey published in Coin Monthly Oct 1972 may answer your question. He does not use Freeman's notation so don't confuse his notation with the one you are using. I also believe that the £1050 that he refers to is the total value of coins of all dates that he used to extract his sample from.

Court's 1A (Freeman's 2A) must be extremely scarce if it exists at all. I keep looking!

Freeman only records proofs for his 1A & 1B and assigns a rarity of R8 (12,001-20,000) & R10 3,501-7,000) to them.

Thank you very much AardHawk.

That information is most helpful.

[DaveG38 405]

I was wondering if anyone could give me a little help and answer a couple of questions to do with the 1937 Penny Die Variations please.

As I understand it there are 2 OBV types and two REV types:

OBV 1 - The upright limb of the 'P' in IMP points directly at a Border Tooth.

OBV 2 - The upright limb of the 'P' in IMP points slightly to the right of a Border Tooth.

REV A - The upright limb of the 'E' in Penny points directly at a Border Tooth.

REV B - The upright limb of the 'E' in Penny points between Border Teeth.

Are there any combinations that are scacer or rarer than the others? If so do they command a premium over the others?

Does this affect only the Proof Issues for that year or the standard Circulation Issues, or both?

Any help and advice is as always greatly appreciated.

When I was researching my book on 20th Century Bronze varieties, I concluded that the reported varieties, based on your definitions of the obverse and reverses are;

Business Strike: 1+A, 1+B and 2+B

Proof strike: 1+A, 1+B and a reported but not confirmed 2+B

There were no reports of any type with the 2+A combination. Also, nothing I have seen since suggests otherwise.

[argentumandcoins 70]

I was wondering if anyone could give me a little help and answer a couple of questions to do with the 1937 Penny Die Variations please.

As I understand it there are 2 OBV types and two REV types:

OBV 1 - The upright limb of the 'P' in IMP points directly at a Border Tooth.

OBV 2 - The upright limb of the 'P' in IMP points slightly to the right of a Border Tooth.

REV A - The upright limb of the 'E' in Penny points directly at a Border Tooth.

REV B - The upright limb of the 'E' in Penny points between Border Teeth.

Are there any combinations that are scacer or rarer than the others? If so do they command a premium over the others?

Does this affect only the Proof Issues for that year or the standard Circulation Issues, or both?

Any help and advice is as always greatly appreciated.

When I was researching my book on 20th Century Bronze varieties, I concluded that the reported varieties, based on your definitions of the obverse and reverses are;

Business Strike: 1+A, 1+B and 2+B

Proof strike: 1+A, 1+B and a reported but not confirmed 2+B

There were no reports of any type with the 2+A combination. Also, nothing I have seen since suggests otherwise.

London Coins sold a 2+B proof earlier this year.

[DaveG38 405]

I was wondering if anyone could give me a little help and answer a couple of questions to do with the 1937 Penny Die Variations please.

As I understand it there are 2 OBV types and two REV types:

OBV 1 - The upright limb of the 'P' in IMP points directly at a Border Tooth.

OBV 2 - The upright limb of the 'P' in IMP points slightly to the right of a Border Tooth.

REV A - The upright limb of the 'E' in Penny points directly at a Border Tooth.

REV B - The upright limb of the 'E' in Penny points between Border Teeth.

Are there any combinations that are scacer or rarer than the others? If so do they command a premium over the others?

Does this affect only the Proof Issues for that year or the standard Circulation Issues, or both?

Any help and advice is as always greatly appreciated.

When I was researching my book on 20th Century Bronze varieties, I concluded that the reported varieties, based on your definitions of the obverse and reverses are;

Business Strike: 1+A, 1+B and 2+B

Proof strike: 1+A, 1+B and a reported but not confirmed 2+B

There were no reports of any type with the 2+A combination. Also, nothing I have seen since suggests otherwise.

London Coins sold a 2+B proof earlier this year.

Thanks for that Argentum.

[Peckris 579]

I was wondering if anyone could give me a little help and answer a couple of questions to do with the 1937 Penny Die Variations please.

As I understand it there are 2 OBV types and two REV types:

OBV 1 - The upright limb of the 'P' in IMP points directly at a Border Tooth.

OBV 2 - The upright limb of the 'P' in IMP points slightly to the right of a Border Tooth.

REV A - The upright limb of the 'E' in Penny points directly at a Border Tooth.

REV B - The upright limb of the 'E' in Penny points between Border Teeth.

Are there any combinations that are scacer or rarer than the others? If so do they command a premium over the others?

Does this affect only the Proof Issues for that year or the standard Circulation Issues, or both?

Any help and advice is as always greatly appreciated.

My understanding is that there are no scarce varieties of 1937 anything. Except for an Edward 3d bit of course! At any rate, few people have ever been excited by the penny varieties and that's why they don't appear in most price guides (or any?). Nor have I ever seen a 1937 penny offered for sale by variety, which should give you a clue as to how much they set the world on fire.

[Peckris 579]

I was wondering if anyone could give me a little help and answer a couple of questions to do with the 1937 Penny Die Variations please.

As I understand it there are 2 OBV types and two REV types:

OBV 1 - The upright limb of the 'P' in IMP points directly at a Border Tooth.

OBV 2 - The upright limb of the 'P' in IMP points slightly to the right of a Border Tooth.

REV A - The upright limb of the 'E' in Penny points directly at a Border Tooth.

REV B - The upright limb of the 'E' in Penny points between Border Teeth.

Are there any combinations that are scacer or rarer than the others? If so do they command a premium over the others?

Does this affect only the Proof Issues for that year or the standard Circulation Issues, or both?

Any help and advice is as always greatly appreciated.

My understanding is that - Edward 3d bits aside - there are no noteworthy varieties of 1937 coins. You never see them in price guides or offered for sale, so they don't exactly set the world alight. It's probably safe to say from that that there are no rarities among them.

[Red Riley 2]

My understanding is that - Edward 3d bits aside - there are no noteworthy varieties of 1937 coins. You never see them in price guides or offered for sale, so they don't exactly set the world alight. It's probably safe to say from that that there are no rarities among them.

Probably true, and being in possession of each of the business types, I would say that these are the kind of variety that cure my insomnia! The differences are minute and consist of nothing more than letters pointing to teeth or gaps and not much else. I'm sorry if it's anybody's 'thing' but if all varieties were like this I'd collect bottle tops.

[davidrj 194]

My understanding is that - Edward 3d bits aside - there are no noteworthy varieties of 1937 coins. You never see them in price guides or offered for sale, so they don't exactly set the world alight. It's probably safe to say from that that there are no rarities among them.

Probably true, and being in possession of each of the business types, I would say that these are the kind of variety that cure my insomnia! The differences are minute and consist of nothing more than letters pointing to teeth or gaps and not much else. I'm sorry if it's anybody's 'thing' but if all varieties were like this I'd collect bottle tops.

Agreed1, I have all three types in decent grade, but differences are minor and very uninteresting. The 99+ variations of ship halfpennies leave me cold too, not really enthused by anything post george V

[Red Riley 2]

Agreed1, I have all three types in decent grade, but differences are minor and very uninteresting. The 99+ variations of ship halfpennies leave me cold too, not really enthused by anything post george V

The only post 1936 penny varieties even approaching collectability are the 1940 single/double line. IMHO!

[scott 144]

1945 9 double?

[Red Riley 2]

1945 9 double?

Not for me. A number struck over a different number e.g. 1865 over 3 is fine but a 9 over another 9 just doesn't float my boat.

[Peckris 579]

Agreed1, I have all three types in decent grade, but differences are minor and very uninteresting. The 99+ variations of ship halfpennies leave me cold too, not really enthused by anything post george V

The only post 1936 penny varieties even approaching collectability are the 1940 single/double line. IMHO!

1946 die flaw?

[RobJ 0]

When I was researching my book on 20th Century Bronze varieties, I concluded that the reported varieties, based on your definitions of the obverse and reverses are;

Business Strike: 1+A, 1+B and 2+B

Proof strike: 1+A, 1+B and a reported but not confirmed 2+B

There were no reports of any type with the 2+A combination. Also, nothing I have seen since suggests otherwise.

Thanks for the information Dave.

That is just what I was looking for.

My understanding is that - Edward 3d bits aside - there are no noteworthy varieties of 1937 coins. You never see them in price guides or offered for sale, so they don't exactly set the world alight. It's probably safe to say from that that there are no rarities among them.

Probably true, and being in possession of each of the business types, I would say that these are the kind of variety that cure my insomnia! The differences are minute and consist of nothing more than letters pointing to teeth or gaps and not much else. I'm sorry if it's anybody's 'thing' but if all varieties were like this I'd collect bottle tops.

Agreed1, I have all three types in decent grade, but differences are minor and very uninteresting. The 99+ variations of ship halfpennies leave me cold too, not really enthused by anything post george V

I must admit that I share your sentiments about the 1937 Penny Variations Peckris, Red and David. They personally hold no particular interest for me either.

The only reason that I initally posed the question was that I was looking to purchase a set of George V Coronation Coins and when I was browsing the internet I did notice that a couple of web sites noted different Freeman numbers for the Penny.

If I am completely honest, I had no idea that there were any Die Variations at all for the 1937 Penny, and it was only when I did a search that I came across the information about different letters pointing to different Border Teeth or Border Spaces.

It was more out of curiosity than anything else that I asked in the first place.

[Peter 615]

Freeman / Gouby /Peck created the monster of varieties.I looked at the recent CC auction of pennies how many 1860's?

I bought a job lot of Coin mags from 1967 to 1981...they often had surveys and detailed varieties..much better than todays coin news.

I stopped my subsciption due to mainly new issues and rubbish being focused on...I now stick to my Jazz mags and the daily sport

[Peckris 579]

I bought a job lot of Coin mags from 1967 to 1981...they often had surveys and detailed varieties..much better than todays coin news.

I stopped my subsciption due to mainly new issues and rubbish being focused on...I now stick to my Jazz mags and the daily sport

I still mourn the demise of Coin Monthly, though towards the end it was beginning to go the way that Coin News is now.

[argentumandcoins 70]

Coin News is okay for those times when you know that you're going to be on the throne long enough to warm the seat but not that long that you could read anything useful!!!

[argentumandcoins 70]

forgot to say that for anybody wanting all of the currency freeman numbers I know this website that..............

[Colin G. 147]

I think varieties are for those of us with a more severe form of OCD. Date runs just don't cut it, we need more boxes to tick

I must admit I can get more fascinated by date widths and obvious repunches than a border tooth to this or that (and the fact that anyone would pay that much for an 1863 slender 3 penny in that state is beyond me, but someone did). Whilst I know the "border tooth syndrome" would indicate a change in design, the reworkings of a die helps fulfil my interest in die sinking, die repairs, and the workers themselves.

Whilst I can appreciate varieties may not appeal to a number of collectors, it does appeal to me, and I don't think I even do it just to intentionally collect them. I like to think I try and understand the life of a hub and the various dies, and the effect each has on a coin's state, and as a result I have inevitably ended up cataloguing the results. Whilst I am only at the proverbial tip of the iceberg, I do enjoy what I do and that is my main reason

I believe that it was not a case that even Peck felt that minor varieties were not included within his reference book because they were unimportant, but that the task he was undertaking was already of enormous complexity due to the vast time periods involved and the multiple denominations that he was researching. This is confirmed when Peck states that "the final decision to draw the line was largely determined by the impossibility of reaching any finality in the case of die-varieties of the current coins and the impracticality of describing them except by photography".

In summary I guess I may be slightly mentally unstable

[davidrj 194]

forgot to say that for anybody wanting all of the currency freeman numbers I know this website that..............

Nah! The real challenge now is to get all the Gouby variants within each Freeman number

David

[argentumandcoins 70]

forgot to say that for anybody wanting all of the currency freeman numbers I know this website that..............

Nah! The real challenge now is to get all the Gouby variants within each Freeman number

David

Added about 80 to the wants list. Thanks very much Michael

Might have done me a favour with the 1893 over 2 though, given the £460 hammer price for a fair example.

We have a lustrous A UNC example in the collection (choice high grade example, probably finest extant and seriously undervalued by Spunk in all of their books at sweet fanny adams).... sorry slipped into dodgy ebay seller mode