1937 Penny Die Variations

[RobJ 0]

Freeman / Gouby /Peck created the monster of varieties.I looked at the recent CC auction of pennies how many 1860's?

I bought a job lot of Coin mags from 1967 to 1981...they often had surveys and detailed varieties..much better than todays coin news.

I think varieties are for those of us with a more severe form of OCD. Date runs just don't cut it, we need more boxes to tick

I must admit I can get more fascinated by date widths and obvious repunches than a border tooth to this or that (and the fact that anyone would pay that much for an 1863 slender 3 penny in that state is beyond me, but someone did). Whilst I know the "border tooth syndrome" would indicate a change in design, the reworkings of a die helps fulfil my interest in die sinking, die repairs, and the workers themselves.

Whilst I can appreciate varieties may not appeal to a number of collectors, it does appeal to me, and I don't think I even do it just to intentionally collect them. I like to think I try and understand the life of a hub and the various dies, and the effect each has on a coin's state, and as a result I have inevitably ended up cataloguing the results. Whilst I am only at the proverbial tip of the iceberg, I do enjoy what I do and that is my main reason

I believe that it was not a case that even Peck felt that minor varieties were not included within his reference book because they were unimportant, but that the task he was undertaking was already of enormous complexity due to the vast time periods involved and the multiple denominations that he was researching. This is confirmed when Peck states that "the final decision to draw the line was largely determined by the impossibility of reaching any finality in the case of die-varieties of the current coins and the impracticality of describing them except by photography".

In summary I guess I may be slightly mentally unstable

I think that one of the hardest things that I have found to understand in my short time in Coin Collecting is variations within coins. There seem to be quite a few 'Systems' of identification and labeling and no two seem to be quite the same.

I have had to start to learn a new 'Secret Code' just to be able to start to understand what I am supposed to be looking at and even then depending on whch 'System' one uses there are discrepancies between them which leads to even more confusion.

I will admit however, that although I may not get particularly over excited over one coin which has a 'Dot' or one with a letter that 'Points to Tooth' where another does not, and in all probability I would not end up collecting each and every variation of said coins. I do still find the subject quite fascinating, and the seemingly endless amount of variations, although severely headache inducing, are most interesting.

Also, as Colin pointed out, the variations themselves show a 'History' within itself of the process of Coin Manafacture which itself is a most fascinating subject.

To use a rather crude analogy, a friend of mine whilst learning Sleight of Hand Card Magic learnt 10 different variations on how to perform a 'Double Lift.' He obtained as many books and Magic Journals as he possibly could and totally absorbed himself in the subject. I on the other hand learnt how to perform one, but that is not to say that I didn't find the other variations interesting, it's just that it personally wasn't my 'Cup of Tea.'

[Peter 615]

When it comes to variations I tend to stick published items...I have over 10 1720 farthings which are different.

[scott 144]

ahh yes good old early milled, i have a couple of maybe new variaty farthings though

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

To use a rather crude analogy, a friend of mine whilst learning Sleight of Hand Card Magic learnt 10 different variations on how to perform a 'Double Lift.' He obtained as many books and Magic Journals as he possibly could and totally absorbed himself in the subject. I on the other hand learnt how to perform one, but that is not to say that I didn't find the other variations interesting, it's just that it personally wasn't my 'Cup of Tea.'

I think, if you look into anything in any depth, you will quite quickly encounter someone trying to tell you that there are hidden complexities and a language and 'code' as you put it of it's own.

A butcher will try and tell you about the differences in flavour between different cuts of beef, whereas in reality there is very little difference, the whole back end of the cow tastes great - and varies from cow to cow.

A wine maker will bang on about 'terroir' that you can taste the land in a wine.

A fine art dealer will tell you about Monet's impressionalist talent, whereas in reality he couldn't paint.

Don't get me started on estate agents.

And so, with coins, people will try to convince you to part with vast sums of money for a 'dot' caused by die damage/wear.

The only way to collect coins is with a dry eye and a steady hand.

Think Wyatt Earp.

[RobJ 0]

I think, if you look into anything in any depth, you will quite quickly encounter someone trying to tell you that there are hidden complexities and a language and 'code' as you put it of it's own.

A butcher will try and tell you about the differences in flavour between different cuts of beef, whereas in reality there is very little difference, the whole back end of the cow tastes great - and varies from cow to cow.

A wine maker will bang on about 'terroir' that you can taste the land in a wine.

A fine art dealer will tell you about Monet's impressionalist talent, whereas in reality he couldn't paint.

Don't get me started on estate agents.

And so, with coins, people will try to convince you to part with vast sums of money for a 'dot' caused by die damage/wear.

The only way to collect coins is with a dry eye and a steady hand.

Think Wyatt Earp.

That is very sound advice indeed £400.

I must admit that I do agree with you. With a lot of things in life, and to me Coin Collecting is no different, you will have someone who 'Knows Better' and will 'Steer You In The Right Direction.' Where as what they do in reality is steer you in THEIR direction for whatever reason.

I have found personally that it is much better to create your own paths in life and to follow them in which ever way that you see fit.

Take advice on the way, listen to it, heed the warnings and advice of those who have travelled those paths and who speak from hard earnt experience, as to me, only a fool will allow sound advice to fall on deaf ears.

This is why I am trying to ask as many questions and seek as much advice and information as I can from those with many years experience in Coin Collecting. That way I can hopefully learn and have my own enjoyable journey along the way.

[DaveG38 405]

A slightly different take on varieties, based on the work I have done on my books on 20thC bronze and silver varieties. Firstly, a number of my customers commented that they were not wealthy enough to extend their buying to older higher condition coins and so expanding their 20thC collection to include the varieties was interesting for them and added a new dimension to what appeared to be a 'complete' collection.

The second reason was that they recognised that certain varieties attracted a premium, but it was often possible on eBay and certainly at local auctions, to obtain many of the varieties at bargain prices, and this, for them, added to the thrill of the hunt.

[davidrj 194]

A slightly different take on varieties, based on the work I have done on my books on 20thC bronze and silver varieties. Firstly, a number of my customers commented that they were not wealthy enough to extend their buying to older higher condition coins and so expanding their 20thC collection to include the varieties was interesting for them and added a new dimension to what appeared to be a 'complete' collection.

The second reason was that they recognised that certain varieties attracted a premium, but it was often possible on eBay and certainly at local auctions, to obtain many of the varieties at bargain prices, and this, for them, added to the thrill of the hunt.

Spot on!

I completed the date set of bronze pennies 40 years ago, culled from circulation and mainly in lousy condition.

Upgrading and looking for varieties within the date series keeps me interested, and yes, I know damn well I'm never going to complete Freeman, let alone Gouby

David

[Peckris 579]

forgot to say that for anybody wanting all of the currency freeman numbers I know this website that..............

Nah! The real challenge now is to get all the Gouby variants within each Freeman number

David

And when you've got those, then there are the Jerrams/Satin variants to start on

[RobJ 0]

A slightly different take on varieties, based on the work I have done on my books on 20thC bronze and silver varieties. Firstly, a number of my customers commented that they were not wealthy enough to extend their buying to older higher condition coins and so expanding their 20thC collection to include the varieties was interesting for them and added a new dimension to what appeared to be a 'complete' collection.

The second reason was that they recognised that certain varieties attracted a premium, but it was often possible on eBay and certainly at local auctions, to obtain many of the varieties at bargain prices, and this, for them, added to the thrill of the hunt.

You have raised some interesting and valid points there Dave.

I think what it comes down to really is personal taste and preference. There are other issues of course, financial issues as you correctly pointed out being one of them.

For me personally I still like to check my change to see if I can obtain a new variety of £2 coin or 50p piece. I personally get satisfaction when I manage to obtain a variety that I previously did not have, and to me it is not only a very fun but also a cost effective way to collect Coins. Where as other Coin Collectors would balk at the idea of collecting any modern Decimal Issue be it from change or not.

I think that a collector of Coins, or anything else for that matter, must be able to keep their interest alive, if not then why bother collecting at all if there is no personal satisfaction gained from it?

For some people it's Roman for others it's Victorian 'Copper' for some it's Farthings and for others it's Half Crowns. Some people like to collect each and every variety, where as others simply do not bother at all.

I think that as long as someone has a passion for Coins, in no matter which area that they choose to specialise in, that they have fun and receive pleasure and satisfaction from it then that is what matters.

[RobJ 0]

Spot on!

I completed the date set of bronze pennies 40 years ago, culled from circulation and mainly in lousy condition.

Upgrading and looking for varieties within the date series keeps me interested, and yes, I know damn well I'm never going to complete Freeman, let alone Gouby

David

Even if you don't David, I think that it may be the thought that you might just do that one day that keeps you interested and keeps you searching.

[Peckris 579]

The second reason was that they recognised that certain varieties attracted a premium, but it was often possible on eBay and certainly at local auctions, to obtain many of the varieties at bargain prices, and this, for them, added to the thrill of the hunt.

For me personally I still like to check my change to see if I can obtain a new variety of £2 coin or 50p piece. I personally get satisfaction when I manage to obtain a variety that I previously did not have, and to me it is not only a very fun but also a cost effective way to collect Coins. Where as other Coin Collectors would balk at the idea of collecting any modern Decimal Issue be it from change or not.

I think that a collector of Coins, or anything else for that matter, must be able to keep their interest alive, if not then why bother collecting at all if there is no personal satisfaction gained from it?

For some people it's Roman for others it's Victorian 'Copper' for some it's Farthings and for others it's Half Crowns. Some people like to collect each and every variety, where as others simply do not bother at all.

I think that as long as someone has a passion for Coins, in no matter which area that they choose to specialise in, that they have fun and receive pleasure and satisfaction from it then that is what matters.

Even if you don't David, I think that it may be the thought that you might just do that one day that keeps you interested and keeps you searching.

All very valid points. From my own viewpoint, the pleasure is from the coins I already have - plus filling in some type gaps at the right price, or upgrading some of the items which can use it. I suppose we never stop collecting, not entirely, but there comes a point where the reward is as much from taking out and looking and enjoying, as it is planning the next stage of the hunt.

[DaveG38 405]

A slightly different take on varieties, based on the work I have done on my books on 20thC bronze and silver varieties. Firstly, a number of my customers commented that they were not wealthy enough to extend their buying to older higher condition coins and so expanding their 20thC collection to include the varieties was interesting for them and added a new dimension to what appeared to be a 'complete' collection.

The second reason was that they recognised that certain varieties attracted a premium, but it was often possible on eBay and certainly at local auctions, to obtain many of the varieties at bargain prices, and this, for them, added to the thrill of the hunt.

Spot on!

I completed the date set of bronze pennies 40 years ago, culled from circulation and mainly in lousy condition.

Upgrading and looking for varieties within the date series keeps me interested, and yes, I know damn well I'm never going to complete Freeman, let alone Gouby

David

I'm coming up to a major collecting junction of my own any day now. I collect all dates and denominations including farthings and I've just bought, but not yet received, the last one that I need. Basically, I collect circulating coins, not patterns or other exotics and I've been looking for one date of farthing for quite some time now. At the DNW auction the other day, I finally laid my hands on a 1684 James II farthing, which means I can now say that I have the whole set from 1956 back to 1672. The issue is do I now think about the varieties, of which I already have some, or just say that's it, farthings are done. I'm not sure yet as I am just savouring slipping the final farthing into place!!!!!

[RobJ 0]

All very valid points. From my own viewpoint, the pleasure is from the coins I already have - plus filling in some type gaps at the right price, or upgrading some of the items which can use it. I suppose we never stop collecting, not entirely, but there comes a point where the reward is as much from taking out and looking and enjoying, as it is planning the next stage of the hunt.

I wholeheartedly agree with you Peckris.

Although my collection is still in its infancy I get great pleasure from looking at my Coins. There really is no point in collecting at all if they are to just sit there and gather dust and not be enjoyed.

[RobJ 0]

I'm coming up to a major collecting junction of my own any day now. I collect all dates and denominations including farthings and I've just bought, but not yet received, the last one that I need. Basically, I collect circulating coins, not patterns or other exotics and I've been looking for one date of farthing for quite some time now. At the DNW auction the other day, I finally laid my hands on a 1684 James II farthing, which means I can now say that I have the whole set from 1956 back to 1672. The issue is do I now think about the varieties, of which I already have some, or just say that's it, farthings are done. I'm not sure yet as I am just savouring slipping the final farthing into place!!!!!

Congratulations on completing your Farthing run Dave, that is no mean feat!

I think that is a difficult situation for any collector to find themselves in...

Do you consider the different varieties? Do you look at your collection and consider any Coins that need to be upgraded and start on that never ending quest? Do you give yourself a pat on the back at a job well done of completing your Farthing run and focus on another part of your collection? Do you phone a friend?

Choices, Choices! lol

First of all though, I would really savour the moment of as you say 'Slipping the final farthing into place' and take great pleasure in doing so!

[Rob 3,152]

I'm coming up to a major collecting junction of my own any day now. I collect all dates and denominations including farthings and I've just bought, but not yet received, the last one that I need. Basically, I collect circulating coins, not patterns or other exotics and I've been looking for one date of farthing for quite some time now. At the DNW auction the other day, I finally laid my hands on a 1684 James II farthing, which means I can now say that I have the whole set from 1956 back to 1672. The issue is do I now think about the varieties, of which I already have some, or just say that's it, farthings are done. I'm not sure yet as I am just savouring slipping the final farthing into place!!!!!

Extend the collection backwards in time. There is a multitude of James I & Charles I coppers, and hammered silver will take you back another three or four hundred years.

[Colin G. 147]

A slightly different take on varieties, based on the work I have done on my books on 20thC bronze and silver varieties. Firstly, a number of my customers commented that they were not wealthy enough to extend their buying to older higher condition coins and so expanding their 20thC collection to include the varieties was interesting for them and added a new dimension to what appeared to be a 'complete' collection.

The second reason was that they recognised that certain varieties attracted a premium, but it was often possible on eBay and certainly at local auctions, to obtain many of the varieties at bargain prices, and this, for them, added to the thrill of the hunt.

Dave,

That is a fascinating insight, and one which I find is also relevant to me. My budget was, and still is limited, and so the chance to grab varieties at auction/ebay does allow me to expand my collection by taking advantage of the knowledge I have gained in my particular area of interest.

In many ways it is healthy that we all have our individual approaches otherwise we would all be fighting over the same coins

[Colin G. 147]

Extend the collection backwards in time. There is a multitude of James I & Charles I coppers, and hammered silver will take you back another three or four hundred years.

A door I have recently opened, which I have to admit did not appeal to me that much at first, but I soon got bitten AGAIN!!!

It is like starting all over again, especially with the hammered coins, completely new reading, a new approach to what has "appeal" and I think you have to do a lot more mileage to find the "right" examples. Don't get me wrong, I think milled copper/bronze will always be my primary area of collecting, but it has certainly been a fascinating leap.

Then again....more competition over the pieces I want......Dave I would just move on to other denominations

Well done on the James, the tin farthings are an area I have not yet ventured into with any real intent. I seem to have started at both ends and be working my way into the middle. I think this is mainly due to the time/finances required to fill those gaps in the tin/early copper series. I will get there but it's just going to take time and patience. I also bagged a few at the DNW auction just waiting for them to arrive they have just arrived.

[DaveG38 405]

Extend the collection backwards in time. There is a multitude of James I & Charles I coppers, and hammered silver will take you back another three or four hundred years.

A door I have recently opened, which I have to admit did not appeal to me that much at first, but I soon got bitten AGAIN!!!

It is like starting all over again, especially with the hammered coins, completely new reading, a new approach to what has "appeal" and I think you have to do a lot more mileage to find the "right" examples. Don't get me wrong, I think milled copper/bronze will always be my primary area of collecting, but it has certainly been a fascinating leap.

Then again....more competition over the pieces I want......Dave I would just move on to other denominations

Well done on the James, the tin farthings are an area I have not yet ventured into with any real intent. I seem to have started at both ends and be working my way into the middle. I think this is mainly due to the time/finances required to fill those gaps in the tin/early copper series. I will get there but it's just going to take time and patience. I also bagged a few at the DNW auction just waiting for them to arrive they have just arrived.

Colin,

I do collect other denominations and here I still have gaps waiting to be filled. For instance halfpennies will be done when I can find a 1686 tin one. Pennies are done. Threepences are done, except possibly the 1850s area where it's a bit fuzzy over what was a circulating coin and what wasn't. Sixpences back to 1720 and shillings to 1728 - not looking forward to the WCC series as I've got one but it cost, owch! Florins all done. Halfcrowns back to 1743, but I am short of a 1841, 1839 and 1823 1st Rev (and looking at prices I'm likely to have these gaps for a long time) and crowns to 1818. I've got a fair number of others further back but these are the 'frontier' dates. The trouble is that when I look at some of the coins, I can see that I need to improve many of them and so its a dilemma. Do I forge ahead with dates going back or do I improve, and then there are the varieties!! Choices, choices.

All of this represents a lifetimes collecting, starting when I took coins out of change as a kid - oh the exciting days of £sd. I had a quite a lull through the 1970s and early 80s and picked things up again towards the 90s. And here I am with a few odd dates to go. Oh for a lottery win!!!

[scott 144]

yea tin farthings good luck finding a full run of those :/

quite a few varietys of the james and charles I as well as all the mints for the hammered

[Colin G. 147]

Dave,

I think this is going to be a huge decision for you, going back further or into the world of varieties will obviously create another load of gaps for you to fill which will be hard enough on a single denomination, never mind across the range of denominations you have.

Whereas upgrading will inevitably force you into the world of selling to a certain extent, but it can be beneficial in so far as it partly funds those upgrades

Good luck with whichever path you choose

[DaveG38 405]

yea tin farthings good luck finding a full run of those :/

quite a few varietys of the james and charles I as well as all the mints for the hammered

Scott,

I have a run of the dates and main types, but if I went for the Peck varieties, I'd have a long way to go. And there's the problem of new unknown varieties. For instance the 1684 James II which is on its way has a stop between FAMULUS and the date, which means its an uncatalogued type!!! Agggh.

[Peter 615]

A slightly different take on varieties, based on the work I have done on my books on 20thC bronze and silver varieties. Firstly, a number of my customers commented that they were not wealthy enough to extend their buying to older higher condition coins and so expanding their 20thC collection to include the varieties was interesting for them and added a new dimension to what appeared to be a 'complete' collection.

The second reason was that they recognised that certain varieties attracted a premium, but it was often possible on eBay and certainly at local auctions, to obtain many of the varieties at bargain prices, and this, for them, added to the thrill of the hunt.

Spot on!

I completed the date set of bronze pennies 40 years ago, culled from circulation and mainly in lousy condition.

Upgrading and looking for varieties within the date series keeps me interested, and yes, I know damn well I'm never going to complete Freeman, let alone Gouby

David

I'm coming up to a major collecting junction of my own any day now. I collect all dates and denominations including farthings and I've just bought, but not yet received, the last one that I need. Basically, I collect circulating coins, not patterns or other exotics and I've been looking for one date of farthing for quite some time now. At the DNW auction the other day, I finally laid my hands on a 1684 James II farthing, which means I can now say that I have the whole set from 1956 back to 1672. The issue is do I now think about the varieties, of which I already have some, or just say that's it, farthings are done. I'm not sure yet as I am just savouring slipping the final farthing into place!!!!!

I've completed the copper farthing date run but I'm upgrading where I can and adding varieties...I've given up on 1693 & 1718 unless my numbers come in.

[Rob 3,152]

I've given up on 1693 & 1718 unless my numbers come in.

Ask Mr C very nicely (preferably with a very large amount of dosh) and you are in with an outside chance of the 1718.

[Colin G. 147]

"preferably with a very large amount of dosh"

That's the problem area with that sentence, the rest of it was fine

[DaveG38 405]

Dave,

I think this is going to be a huge decision for you, going back further or into the world of varieties will obviously create another load of gaps for you to fill which will be hard enough on a single denomination, never mind across the range of denominations you have.

Whereas upgrading will inevitably force you into the world of selling to a certain extent, but it can be beneficial in so far as it partly funds those upgrades

Good luck with whichever path you choose

The decision is already partly made in that I don't really have that much interest in hammered coinage. I do have a few dozen, but they don't really do it for me. The plethora of Edward I, II and III pennies all of which look much the same doesn't grab me, and that's without the mints and moneyers. So my current policy is very much try to find the 1686 halfpenny and keep building 18th century sixpences and shillings - so far I'm doing quite well with Anne, as well as filling gaps in the two Georges, plus the Maundy (many thanks to Red Riley here). Sooner or later though, you are right that I'll have to decide where to go next.