1937 Penny Die Variations

[1949threepence 3,367]

Freeman / Gouby /Peck created the monster of varieties.I looked at the recent CC auction of pennies how many 1860's?

I bought a job lot of Coin mags from 1967 to 1981...they often had surveys and detailed varieties..much better than todays coin news.

I stopped my subsciption due to mainly new issues and rubbish being focused on...I now stick to my Jazz mags and the daily sport

I'd really enjoy skimming through some old coin mags from the 1960's or even earlier. Must try and buy some at a coin fair. Nowadays we could do with a decent mag that is more technical and less lightweight (for want of better words).

I think varieties are for those of us with a more severe form of OCD. Date runs just don't cut it, we need more boxes to tick

I must admit I can get more fascinated by date widths and obvious repunches than a border tooth to this or that (and the fact that anyone would pay that much for an 1863 slender 3 penny in that state is beyond me, but someone did). Whilst I know the "border tooth syndrome" would indicate a change in design, the reworkings of a die helps fulfil my interest in die sinking, die repairs, and the workers themselves.

Whilst I can appreciate varieties may not appeal to a number of collectors, it does appeal to me, and I don't think I even do it just to intentionally collect them. I like to think I try and understand the life of a hub and the various dies, and the effect each has on a coin's state, and as a result I have inevitably ended up cataloguing the results. Whilst I am only at the proverbial tip of the iceberg, I do enjoy what I do and that is my main reason

I believe that it was not a case that even Peck felt that minor varieties were not included within his reference book because they were unimportant, but that the task he was undertaking was already of enormous complexity due to the vast time periods involved and the multiple denominations that he was researching. This is confirmed when Peck states that "the final decision to draw the line was largely determined by the impossibility of reaching any finality in the case of die-varieties of the current coins and the impracticality of describing them except by photography".

In summary I guess I may be slightly mentally unstable

I have to admit, I'm not much of a one for letters pointing to border teeth, as you need a magnifying glass to even see them. I do, however, like some varieties, such as wide and narrow dates. But minor differences in obverse/reverse combinations, don't do it for me,

[Peckris 579]

I do collect other denominations and here I still have gaps waiting to be filled. For instance halfpennies will be done when I can find a 1686 tin one. Pennies are done. Threepences are done, except possibly the 1850s area where it's a bit fuzzy over what was a circulating coin and what wasn't. Sixpences back to 1720 and shillings to 1728 - not looking forward to the WCC series as I've got one but it cost, owch! Florins all done. Halfcrowns back to 1743, but I am short of a 1841, 1839 and 1823 1st Rev (and looking at prices I'm likely to have these gaps for a long time) and crowns to 1818. I've got a fair number of others further back but these are the 'frontier' dates. The trouble is that when I look at some of the coins, I can see that I need to improve many of them and so its a dilemma. Do I forge ahead with dates going back or do I improve, and then there are the varieties!! Choices, choices.

All of this represents a lifetimes collecting, starting when I took coins out of change as a kid - oh the exciting days of £sd. I had a quite a lull through the 1970s and early 80s and picked things up again towards the 90s. And here I am with a few odd dates to go. Oh for a lottery win!!!

When I decided to become a type rather than a date collector I breathed a huge sigh of relief. Until I realised the particular ball and chain that comes with that. You see, a type collector must have each 'type' in as high a grade as possible. James II or George I silver, anyone?

[DaveG38 405]

I do collect other denominations and here I still have gaps waiting to be filled. For instance halfpennies will be done when I can find a 1686 tin one. Pennies are done. Threepences are done, except possibly the 1850s area where it's a bit fuzzy over what was a circulating coin and what wasn't. Sixpences back to 1720 and shillings to 1728 - not looking forward to the WCC series as I've got one but it cost, owch! Florins all done. Halfcrowns back to 1743, but I am short of a 1841, 1839 and 1823 1st Rev (and looking at prices I'm likely to have these gaps for a long time) and crowns to 1818. I've got a fair number of others further back but these are the 'frontier' dates. The trouble is that when I look at some of the coins, I can see that I need to improve many of them and so its a dilemma. Do I forge ahead with dates going back or do I improve, and then there are the varieties!! Choices, choices.

All of this represents a lifetimes collecting, starting when I took coins out of change as a kid - oh the exciting days of £sd. I had a quite a lull through the 1970s and early 80s and picked things up again towards the 90s. And here I am with a few odd dates to go. Oh for a lottery win!!!

When I decided to become a type rather than a date collector I breathed a huge sigh of relief. Until I realised the particular ball and chain that comes with that. You see, a type collector must have each 'type' in as high a grade as possible. James II or George I silver, anyone?

I think the problem for me started when I was a child and collected Brooke Bond tea cards. The difficulty was that once you had the album you had to have the set. What was the use of a nearly complete album? And so it is with me for coins - I have to have the date run!!

[davidrj 194]

I think the problem for me started when I was a child and collected Brooke Bond tea cards. The difficulty was that once you had the album you had to have the set. What was the use of a nearly complete album? And so it is with me for coins - I have to have the date run!!

Yes I know the problem. As a kid, I nagged folk to save their bun pennies from change; a side effect living in the then thriving port of Liverpool, I got given a lot of foreign pennies too - they all need completing

Australian pennies probably won't ever be completed, but Ireland penny and Argentine 2c done, but still 4 missing from the complete run of French bronze 10c, and .....................

david

[Peckris 579]

I do collect other denominations and here I still have gaps waiting to be filled. For instance halfpennies will be done when I can find a 1686 tin one. Pennies are done. Threepences are done, except possibly the 1850s area where it's a bit fuzzy over what was a circulating coin and what wasn't. Sixpences back to 1720 and shillings to 1728 - not looking forward to the WCC series as I've got one but it cost, owch! Florins all done. Halfcrowns back to 1743, but I am short of a 1841, 1839 and 1823 1st Rev (and looking at prices I'm likely to have these gaps for a long time) and crowns to 1818. I've got a fair number of others further back but these are the 'frontier' dates. The trouble is that when I look at some of the coins, I can see that I need to improve many of them and so its a dilemma. Do I forge ahead with dates going back or do I improve, and then there are the varieties!! Choices, choices.

All of this represents a lifetimes collecting, starting when I took coins out of change as a kid - oh the exciting days of £sd. I had a quite a lull through the 1970s and early 80s and picked things up again towards the 90s. And here I am with a few odd dates to go. Oh for a lottery win!!!

When I decided to become a type rather than a date collector I breathed a huge sigh of relief. Until I realised the particular ball and chain that comes with that. You see, a type collector must have each 'type' in as high a grade as possible. James II or George I silver, anyone?

I think the problem for me started when I was a child and collected Brooke Bond tea cards. The difficulty was that once you had the album you had to have the set. What was the use of a nearly complete album? And so it is with me for coins - I have to have the date run!!

I think the moment of illumination for me was when I finally completed my date run of 20th Century halfcrowns. I sat there staring at absolutely identically unattractive George VI UNC silver halfcrowns and Elizabeth II 1950s halfcrowns, and I thought "So what?" I have kept the pre-1937 halfcrowns, though I'm tempted to farm out a few of the George V, but since then, the only date run I've been remotely interested in is bronze pennies.

[1949threepence 3,367]

I do collect other denominations and here I still have gaps waiting to be filled. For instance halfpennies will be done when I can find a 1686 tin one. Pennies are done. Threepences are done, except possibly the 1850s area where it's a bit fuzzy over what was a circulating coin and what wasn't. Sixpences back to 1720 and shillings to 1728 - not looking forward to the WCC series as I've got one but it cost, owch! Florins all done. Halfcrowns back to 1743, but I am short of a 1841, 1839 and 1823 1st Rev (and looking at prices I'm likely to have these gaps for a long time) and crowns to 1818. I've got a fair number of others further back but these are the 'frontier' dates. The trouble is that when I look at some of the coins, I can see that I need to improve many of them and so its a dilemma. Do I forge ahead with dates going back or do I improve, and then there are the varieties!! Choices, choices.

All of this represents a lifetimes collecting, starting when I took coins out of change as a kid - oh the exciting days of £sd. I had a quite a lull through the 1970s and early 80s and picked things up again towards the 90s. And here I am with a few odd dates to go. Oh for a lottery win!!!

When I decided to become a type rather than a date collector I breathed a huge sigh of relief. Until I realised the particular ball and chain that comes with that. You see, a type collector must have each 'type' in as high a grade as possible. James II or George I silver, anyone?

I think the problem for me started when I was a child and collected Brooke Bond tea cards. The difficulty was that once you had the album you had to have the set. What was the use of a nearly complete album? And so it is with me for coins - I have to have the date run!!

I think the moment of illumination for me was when I finally completed my date run of 20th Century halfcrowns. I sat there staring at absolutely identically unattractive George VI UNC silver halfcrowns and Elizabeth II 1950s halfcrowns, and I thought "So what?" I have kept the pre-1937 halfcrowns, though I'm tempted to farm out a few of the George V, but since then, the only date run I've been remotely interested in is bronze pennies.

Yeah, there's just something about the bronze penny series that in a sense, marks them out as distinct from all others. They really hit the spot, don't they.

[Peter 615]

I think the problem for me started when I was a child and collected Brooke Bond tea cards. The difficulty was that once you had the album you had to have the set. What was the use of a nearly complete album? And so it is with me for coins - I have to have the date run!!

Yes I know the problem. As a kid, I nagged folk to save their bun pennies from change; a side effect living in the then thriving port of Liverpool, I got given a lot of foreign pennies too - they all need completing

Australian pennies probably won't ever be completed, but Ireland penny and Argentine 2c done, but still 4 missing from the complete run of French bronze 10c, and .....................

david

My uncle was a breadman and then a milkman who sourced a lot of my buns and unc pennies...however when our next door neighbour gave me a 1869 1/2 d I was made up.I also swapped a load of Foley(Shelly) china for pre 47 silver with a fellow QS many years ago...from a very early age I had many contacts pulling out better circulating coins for me...that is why I have 1,000's now

[scott 144]

bronze french 10c, now that is hard to do, they had low mintages lol

argentina 2 cents i dont see many of, but quite attractive

ireland is easy for pennies

Australian pennies i have a few of, i know a site that shows the varietys of those

there is also new zealand to go at btw

[Peckris 579]

I think the moment of illumination for me was when I finally completed my date run of 20th Century halfcrowns. I sat there staring at absolutely identically unattractive George VI UNC silver halfcrowns and Elizabeth II 1950s halfcrowns, and I thought "So what?" I have kept the pre-1937 halfcrowns, though I'm tempted to farm out a few of the George V, but since then, the only date run I've been remotely interested in is bronze pennies.

Yeah, there's just something about the bronze penny series that in a sense, marks them out as distinct from all others. They really hit the spot, don't they.

Yes, there's a whole raft of possible reasons : the hours spent looking through bank bags as a schoolkid, the low face value, the generous size, the sheer number of varieties, the minting history ('ghosting', 'mint toning', missing years, weird metal mixes), the H and KN factor, the 1933 factor, the endless combinations in the first few bun years ... it goes on and on. You can never reach the end! It's an entire branch of numismatics all by itself

[RobJ 0]

When I decided to become a type rather than a date collector I breathed a huge sigh of relief. Until I realised the particular ball and chain that comes with that. You see, a type collector must have each 'type' in as high a grade as possible. James II or George I silver, anyone?

An elementary question if I may?

What is the difference between a Type Collector as opposed to a Date Collector?

Or am I being silly and the clue in the name? ie. A type Collector collects only one of each type of denomination per Monarch/Reign regardless of date?

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

A type Collector collects only one of each type of denomination per Monarch/Reign regardless of date?

Yes, that's right, spot on.

[RobJ 0]

Yes, that's right, spot on.

Thanks for that £400.

That is what I thought, but I thought that it would be better to be on the safe side and to check. lol

[davidrj 194]

there is also new zealand to go at btw

Don't ever remember see a New Zealand panny in circulation, I only have a few - Damn! Ebay search needed

S Africa reared it's head though - they're nice pennies well struck, not like the horrid Aussie roos

[scott 144]

south africa, yea another tough one

what about channel islands

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

south africa, yea another tough one

what about channel islands

I have noticed - mainly because I worked for a SA company a while ago, that there are quite a lot of them here nowadays. I've heard figures of 1.5million within the M25.

There is a lot of interest in SA coins, watch a few pre Boer War pennies and see how they go....

[davidrj 194]

south africa, yea another tough one

what about channel islands

Yes got most of those, there are also a lot of non-Commonwealth penny sized bronze coins worldwide, some very hard to find at reasonable prices,

Keeps me out of mischief though

[Peckris 579]

When I decided to become a type rather than a date collector I breathed a huge sigh of relief. Until I realised the particular ball and chain that comes with that. You see, a type collector must have each 'type' in as high a grade as possible. James II or George I silver, anyone?

An elementary question if I may?

What is the difference between a Type Collector as opposed to a Date Collector?

Or am I being silly and the clue in the name? ie. A type Collector collects only one of each type of denomination per Monarch/Reign regardless of date?

No, that's a bit misleading. A type collector - as the name suggests - wants to have at least one of each type, and in the best condition possible. But there's no fixed rule or even convention on this. For example, a type collector may go after a BU 1902 halfcrown because it's by far the cheapest way of getting that 'type'. But that same collector may well decide he also wants reasonable examples of 1903, 04, 05 halfcrowns because they are the rarities. But also decides that there is little point in having 1906-10. Do you see?

Then there are the varieties. Some type collectors may decide just to have two George VI pennies - one with IND IMP and the other without. Another may decide he wants the same, plus a mint darkened example (1944-46). Yet another may decide he wants both types of 1940 reverse, plus the 1946 mint flaw. And any of those might decide to have one or both of 1950, 51 as the major scarce dates.

Each type collector will have their own ideas of what constitutes "their" collection, and there's no right or wrong to it. All you can say with certainty is that a type collector won't grieve over missing dates.

[scott 144]

but there are always difficultys with any sort of run you wish to have.

try a monarch run, i have this on the side, got back to elizabeth I but missing commonwealth

[Peckris 579]

but there are always difficultys with any sort of run you wish to have.

try a monarch run, i have this on the side, got back to elizabeth I but missing commonwealth

Too true! I was just thinking today, that a type collection of William III would involve MORE coins than a date run, unless the date run included all the main types and varieties

[1949threepence 3,367]

Some collectors will have a mix of date runs and types.

The point is, there are no rules when it comes to personal collections. Just whatever suits at the time.

[RobJ 0]

No, that's a bit misleading. A type collector - as the name suggests - wants to have at least one of each type, and in the best condition possible. But there's no fixed rule or even convention on this. For example, a type collector may go after a BU 1902 halfcrown because it's by far the cheapest way of getting that 'type'. But that same collector may well decide he also wants reasonable examples of 1903, 04, 05 halfcrowns because they are the rarities. But also decides that there is little point in having 1906-10. Do you see?

Then there are the varieties. Some type collectors may decide just to have two George VI pennies - one with IND IMP and the other without. Another may decide he wants the same, plus a mint darkened example (1944-46). Yet another may decide he wants both types of 1940 reverse, plus the 1946 mint flaw. And any of those might decide to have one or both of 1950, 51 as the major scarce dates.

Each type collector will have their own ideas of what constitutes "their" collection, and there's no right or wrong to it. All you can say with certainty is that a type collector won't grieve over missing dates.

Thanks for explaining and clearing that up for me Peckris.

I can see the attraction to both types of collection. With Type Collecting you really can have the cream of the crop, however it will cost you dearly depending on what it is you decide to collect.

With Date Collecting you will have a nice neat organised set of coins covering a period of History.

However, I personally do think that you really need to like the coin type or types that you collect as unless you really like, for example, George VI Florins where the design is the same, to me I think that it could all be a bit 'Samey.'

But as the saying goes ' One mans meat is another mans poision.' So as long as you enjoy what you choose to collect, in whichever way you decide to collect them, then that is all that matters.

[Peckris 579]

However, I personally do think that you really need to like the coin type or types that you collect as unless you really like, for example, George VI Florins where the design is the same, to me I think that it could all be a bit 'Samey.'

But as the saying goes ' One mans meat is another mans poision.' So as long as you enjoy what you choose to collect, in whichever way you decide to collect them, then that is all that matters.

I can see where you're coming from - it's true that I have a type of nearly every machine age currency denomination (silver and copper/bronze), and that means I have only two George VI florins, one silver, one cupro-nickel, as I think it's a pretty awful design. On the other hand I love bronze pennies and have the main dates in EF or better going back to 1887 and most of the "usual suspect" varieties in at least GF; so that's a definite date run.

But I'm beginning to love early milled more, which makes things more expensive unless I keep my sights slightly lower. It also means going for the commoner types, which is of course one big advantage of type collecting. I don't have to yearn after 1860 copper for example. But your last sentence does sum it up really.

[Red Riley 2]

I have only two George VI florins, one silver, one cupro-nickel, as I think it's a pretty awful design.

Couldn't agree more. One of the worst I think. Frankly, very little from 1937 onwards (bar the farthings) really cut the mustard. Am I just a grumpy old man monotonously saying, 'things aren't as good as they used to be...'?

Anyway, back to the subject, I did dabble in both types of collection, eventually having a complete penny run from 1797 to 1970, as well as more than three-quarters of the milled types. In the end, I also went in for European and USA coins, but then the money ran out...

[Peckris 579]

Frankly, very little from 1937 onwards (bar the farthings) really cut the mustard. Am I just a grumpy old man monotonously saying, 'things aren't as good as they used to be...'?

A little harsh perhaps! (Your first sentence, that is ) But as a generalisation, it's got a lot of truth in it. I do quite like the last reverse for Geo VI sixpences (especially in BU), the ship halfpenny reverse, the Eliz II shilling reverses, and the original decimal designs for 10 pence and 50 pence, as well as quite a few of the £1 and £2 reverses. But that's about it really. The nadir being the commemorative 50 pences and £5 coins, which must rival the Geo VI florin for general awfulness.

[RobJ 0]

I think that the way that the way that my Collection is starting to develop I will collect in both types.

For example, with Decimal I have a set of the first Decimal Issues from 1968 (Plus a 1969 50p) a set from 1982 when the wording changed from 'New' to the value. Then I have the sets issued in 1982, 1985 and 1998 where the Obverse image changed.

I do think that shows and offers a good representation of Decimal coinage, however, it simply does not interest me personally to collect each and every set issued for each and every year.

Then I am also collecting £2 and 50p Commemorative Issues both ftom change and in BU along side them.

I have been thinking long and hard and I'm intending to do similar with Pre Decimal Coinage as well, without the countless minor variations.

Elizabeth II for me would be a set of the First Issue in 1953 and then the Second Issue in 1954. And one of each of the Crowns that were issued.

For George VI, a 1937 set, a 1947 set of Cupro Nickel coins and then a set of 1949 When 'IND IMP' was removed. Plus the Crowns.

George V is more complex as there were four Issues in his Reign, but I think that I will go for a set of 1911, 1920 Debased Silver, 1926 ME and a set of 1927/28. Again Plus the Crowns.

Edward Vii is quite straight forward for me as there would only be 1902 set plus the Crown.

Victoria, like George VI is quite complex with the various issues so I think that I will concentrate on the earlier Monarchs first but still purchase the coins that I would like as and when I encounter them.

On the other hand I'm starting to build a nice Date Run Farthing Collection, and I think that I will follow suit with Pennies and maybe even Half Pennies, as I am really starting to like Copper Coins.

I think that for me personally they would be from Edward VII to Elizabeth II, as if I'm honest, Victorian Copper simply does not excite me, except for the Young Head, which is by far my favourite design of any Monarch and one day I would really like a Young Head Farthing Date Run Collection.

With Elizabeth II and George VI I only really would like to collect UNC examples and for George V and Edward VII, I am aiming at EF examples. There are of course some exceptions of the harder dates and coins ( EG, 1949 Threepence, 1926 ME Penny and Half Crown, Wreath Crown, etc, etc.) so they would be in whichever Grade that I could not only afford but also justify as well.

I do know that I have a lot of work cut out for me and I'm under no illusion at all that it will take a long time and indeed money to build such a collection, but as it stands, that is the Collection that I would like to build.

I am in no rush and I intend to enjoy each and every moment and each and every coin as if it were the first.

After that, who knows! lol