Would you call these BUNC?

[azda 979]

Just wondering, because if they're not, then how far off are they. Personally the 1874 i would have said was BUNC, but just my opinion

[azda 979]

And here's another, 1862 this time

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Not the best pictures, but I would say no, they weren't - the toning would be enough to put me off paying a BU price for them.

And anyway as we have discussed endlessly, BU isn't the most helpful term

[Red Riley 2]

Not the best pictures, but I would say no, they weren't - the toning would be enough to put me off paying a BU price for them.

And anyway as we have discussed endlessly, BU isn't the most helpful term

To me you are looking at 95%+ lustre to be BU (which is pretty much Spink's description) and so neither of those would qualify in my book. Any advert for sale for the 1862 should make mention of the horrible black stain on both sides, especially the reverse. But I agree with 400, calling things BU is a habit I should like to kick.

[scott 144]

i never use BU.. but still nice.

[azda 979]

So the 74 is nowhere near BU, personally i thought it wasn't far short black stain apart, so what is the criteria for BU and has anyone got anything of this age in BU?

Edited December 21, 2010 by azda

[Hussulo 6]

UNCIRCULATED

A coin that shows no wear at all, looks as it did when it left the mint with all

the details intact. It may still display very slight "bag marks" or scuffs due to mass

production and storage by the mint.

BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED

Same as uncirculated however the coin still displays its original mint lustre

(shine & colour).

or as Spink defines them 95% colour lustre:

Courtesy of MacCrimmon,

Taken from: http://www.coinsgb.com/Grading.html

[1949threepence 3,367]

So the 74 is nowhere near BU, personally i thought it wasn't far short black stain apart, so what is the criteria for BU and has anyone got anything of this age in BU?

Both UNC, but neither is BU in my opinion, Dave. Very nice, nonetheless. I don't have anything of that age in BU. Nearest in absolute BU is a 1903 penny.

I'm not sure that BU is an entirely useful term, either. Hopefully, Derek (Red Riley) won't mind me copying and pasting this very useful definition from his website:-

About Uncirculated (AU); these coins do not display wear but the grade is not as stringent as plain uncirculated. Coins may have lost some or all of their lustre or may have rather more bag abrasions than a coin described as being in ‘uncirculated’ condition. In my opinion most coins advertised as ‘uncirculated’ should really fall into this category. For copper and bronze coins, I quote a percentage of lustre, so you will see such grades as GEF30 (a coin in GEF condition with 30% lustre spread roughly equally over both sides of the coin) or AU50/75 (a coin in About Uncirculated condition with 50% of lustre on the obverse and 75% on the reverse). I am incidentally, indebted to Michael Gouby for inventing this method of grading which has proved invaluable to copper and bronze collectors over the last two decades.

Uncirculated (Unc); as the name suggests, the coin should be as it left the mint with no signs of circulation or wear. Not necessarily perfect though, because coins can pick up scratches and what are known as ‘bag marks’ during mass production and contact with other coins at the mint. With base metal coins, virtually all of the lustre should still be present and in this condition, the coin is described as brilliant uncirculated (BU). In many ways the description ‘uncirculated’ is not satisfactory as it makes the presumption that the coin has never been handled as a unit of currency, but clearly this cannot be proven. What we mean therefore is ‘appears to be uncirculated’. One prominent dealer uses the term ‘Practically as Struck (PAS) ’as an alternative, which certainly has its merits but for the time being we are stuck with what is usually an untruth.

[Old Copper Nose 0]

Personally I find the term BU a bit confusing when referring to older coins. For some reason I have always thought (rightly or wrongly!) that BU coins were specially struck coins that weren’t intended for circulation, such as the ones in the sets the Royal Mint issue every year?? I have purchased a couple of Victorian pennies which were described as BU Full Lustre.

[Old Copper Nose 0]

And my 1860, shame about the cracks on the reverse but I guess it shows the problems that were associated at this time with the changeover to striking bronze.

[1949threepence 3,367]

I'd agree that the 1862 farthing, plus the 1862 & 1860 pennies alll shown above, are BU. The outstanding example being the farthing.

[azda 979]

But yet they cannot be called BU, i wonder if at certain times we're being harsh towards grading. As coins get older is it possible to keep them in mint preserved states. As a coin gets older should the preserved states of certain periods of grades go upwards?

I hope you undestand what i mean. Sometimes Spink don't list a coin above VF or EF grades, what happens if something comes along in a higher grade outwith what Spink has listed, how do we value that?

[Hussulo 6]

But yet they cannot be called BU, i wonder if at certain times we're being harsh towards grading. As coins get older is it possible to keep them in mint preserved states. As a coin gets older should the preserved states of certain periods of grades go upwards?

I hope you undestand what i mean. Sometimes Spink don't list a coin above VF or EF grades, what happens if something comes along in a higher grade outwith what Spink has listed, how do we value that?

Azda your examples are nice but not BU, the other examples shown could be called BU as they are Uncirculated and still display almost full colour and lustre.

I understand what you mean about older coins getting some slack when it comes to grading. In the US they do but in the UK they don't really. Like a lot of hammered coins only really go up to EF grade. I have heard some descriptions being "as struck" and maybe thats a better term then EF for hammered's?

Take my 1644 Unite for example CGS graded it EF and not getting into the whole slabbing debate but I'm pretty sure even if it was sent to an auction house it would grade as EF, yet I can't see any wear on it. Sure its slightly double struck and weakly struck in parts but essentially it is nearly, if not as struck.

Now the Spink price guide only goes up to VF so if it was sold or auctioned as EF what is it worth? I guess the market would ultimately decide.

[Hussulo 6]

Azda I should also add that your coin images look like scans or low quality photos so the coins might be a lot nicer in hand with a lot of lustre and colour not shown in the fuzzy images.

I can see a lot of nice detail and they look high grade but the images are a bit fuzzy. The second one, as mentioned is only really let down by the dark stains.

[azda 979]

Both images are what i have actually bought....... I bought both for future sale, when both are in hand, i'll offer hi res images as usual as i have no fear of what i buy, i buy because i hope that they go home eventually

[Peckris 579]

Here's my 1860 halfpenny (sorry about the image quality but I have to enlarge my life-size scans to be the minimum size you b*ggers need to see, so a lot of image degradation )

It is actually BU in hand, probably the only bun bronze I have that is genuinely that grade.

[Old Copper Nose 0]

But yet they cannot be called BU, i wonder if at certain times we're being harsh towards grading. As coins get older is it possible to keep them in mint preserved states. As a coin gets older should the preserved states of certain periods of grades go upwards?

I don’t think that as a collective we will ever come to universal agreement in terms of grading coins, it is such a subjective issue that opinions will always be divided. I think we can be a bit harsh when grading coins but I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. To be honest there’s a couple of dealers I have encountered over the years who could do with taking a harsher stance on their grading, but there again that would decrease their profit margins!

As for keeping coins in mint preserved states ... I think it is possible, it just takes a lot of care with regards to storage and handling, more so for copper and bronze as they seem more susceptible to the elements than perhaps gold?

I hope you undestand what i mean. Sometimes Spink don't list a coin above VF or EF grades, what happens if something comes along in a higher grade outwith what Spink has listed, how do we value that?

When that happens you get into unchartered territory in terms of price. Coins like that may seldom come onto the market so it is very difficult to put a value on them. I think Hussolo hit the nail on the head by saying that the market will ultimately decide the value. At auction all it takes is two determined people to push prices well into the stratosphere.

[Red Riley 2]

It is going to be worth a heck of a lot of money anyway. The best chance of selling well would be to send it to one of the more upmarket auction houses. A lovely coin even if gold isn't quite my thing.

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Some cracking coins on this thread chaps.

[Colin G. 147]

Although I do agree that technically perhaps the term "uncirculated" is not literally correct, what alternatives are there? Us collectors do get picky over the smallest things!!

[Colin G. 147]

To me you are looking at 95%+ lustre to be BU (which is pretty much Spink's description) and so neither of those would qualify in my book.

I totally agree with this interpretation, and this is how I would determine a coin to fit into this category.

[azda 979]

Well, here was my 1st Penny, i thought was BU but now UNC, unless someone says AUNC lol

[Peckris 579]

Well, here was my 1st Penny, i thought was BU but now UNC, unless someone says AUNC lol

Plenty of collectors and dealers (all the Cs for example) would describe that as BU az

[HistoryTreasures 0]

No, the first two coins are not BUNC as they do not display the full mint lustre. They are very bright, but they do not have that glossy reflection that the ones placed on later do have. I would describe the farthings as EF-EF+

[azda 979]

Ok, so here are the in hand pix of these 2 coins, thoughts please and Freemans numbers. Left in hi res so 4 posts