5p piece from 2008.

[numishoro 0]

I have just noticed 3 x 5p 's from 2008 on ebay all said to be error coins due to the fact that the reverse is 180 degrees turned round to the head, if that makes sense.Basically, the head and tail should both be the same way up but these 3 are not.the tail design is apparently upside down, or is it the ehad that is upside down?.Any thoughts or explanations?

Edited December 31, 2010 by numishoro

[SionGilbey 1]

Sounds like they scanned both sides, turned one 180 degrees around (can be done easily on paint!) and posted it.

OR they could have just ripped one from the internet which was like that for aesthetic purposes.

Investigating further I found these coins very easily.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2008-error-5-pence-coin-scarcer-than-undated-20p-/150537147931?pt=UK_Coins_BritishDecimal_RL&hash=item230cb6961b

The picture initially looked legit - hard to photoshop!

Enlarging the picture I found it was a normal 5p piece, both sides the right way round!

There was no picture of the coin they were selling!

To be perfectly clear, it's a scam.

Even more cheeky, the OP of this thread seems to be here just so the coin will have been posted on a UK forum, as one of the major selling points on this coin is "this has been on ebay for 30 days prior to this auction, posted across two uk coin forums and also a worldwide forum"!

This type of scam infuriates me every time I go near eBay.

[numishoro 0]

Like you said, the picture looks legit.People would be so easily mis led with these scammers.And because you enlarged the picture, you found the coin to be a normal 5p.Many thanks for your input.Saves me looking through my 5p pieces every time a passenger hands them to me on my bus.

[SionGilbey 1]

Oops, looks like I've been too hasty there, there is another picture of the error coin, to the right of the previous picture

And I got my net detective shoes on as well!

[SionGilbey 1]

Actually, it seems these coins do exist:

http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5450

Oddly, those photos belong to a member called chris, so those photos are either stolen from him, or the ebayer IS him.

Chris, are you the ebayer with the legitimate coin or is this ebayer in fact not you, but someone who has taken your photos and added their own with the side of a normal 5p?

[Marc 0]

Actually, it seems these coins do exist:

http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5450

Oddly, those photos belong to a member called chris, so those photos are either stolen from him, or the ebayer IS him.

Chris, are you the ebayer with the legitimate coin or is this ebayer in fact not you, but someone who has taken your photos and added their own with the side of a normal 5p?

Just checked my 5p's and found a 2010 with one side rotated about 30 to 45 degrees. When I hold the coin to the mirror with the reverse "five pence" level, the Queen's head is tilted almost 30 to 45 degrees to the left. It's very noticeable, esp if you hold a normal 5p next to it.

Would that be an error? What would cause this?

I don't have a camera to show it. Matbe try with my phone later.

[SionGilbey 1]

Actually, it seems these coins do exist:

http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5450

Oddly, those photos belong to a member called chris, so those photos are either stolen from him, or the ebayer IS him.

Chris, are you the ebayer with the legitimate coin or is this ebayer in fact not you, but someone who has taken your photos and added their own with the side of a normal 5p?

Just checked my 5p's and found a 2010 with one side rotated about 30 to 45 degrees. When I hold the coin to the mirror with the reverse "five pence" level, the Queen's head is tilted almost 30 to 45 degrees to the left. It's very noticeable, esp if you hold a normal 5p next to it.

Would that be an error? What would cause this?

I don't have a camera to show it. Matbe try with my phone later.

Die rotation usually causes that sort of error.

I don't know much about mint errors because it's never been that thing and I'm comparatively inexperienced with just 5 to 6 years of collecting - but I've seen a few coins where the die has been rotated (I don't quite know how they manage to do it but they can't exactly check every single one, so some errors get through).

[chris 0]

hi everyone chris ere

coin is legit, three examlples have been found of this type so far...

i dont suspect there are many of these floating about but who knows.

this is the first to be sold to my knowledge and auction was sarted at 99p.

not a bad result but if only a handfull are found they could be worth something pretty in the future

[SionGilbey 1]

hi everyone chris ere

coin is legit, three examlples have been found of this type so far...

i dont suspect there are many of these floating about but who knows.

this is the first to be sold to my knowledge and auction was sarted at 99p.

not a bad result but if only a handfull are found they could be worth something pretty in the future

Are you currently selling yours?

If no, someone has stolen your pictures and are passing them off as their own!

[scott 144]

i have a couple of coins with slight rotations about 20-30 at most. so yes it is possible

[Sylvester 15]

Well I don't know about you guys but I think these post 2008 issues sure are making modern coins more interesting by far, and i'm not even an error collector, but I shall be on the look out for one of these!

[RobJ 0]

The first time that I heard about one of these 5p Coins was when Chris posted a Topic about it a while ago. I have been checking my change since but I am yet to obtain one.

I have seen coins before where the OBV/REV has been rotated to some degree, but I have never personally seen one rotated by a full 180 Degrees before.

It is hard to say just how many of them may be in circulation. I you think about it, a single 'Run' of coins created by the Royal Mint would be in their many Thousands, for example the 20p 'Mule' is believed to have had a 'Run' of less than 250,000, so unless there was some kind of 'Glitch' where only a small amount were produced with the REV at 180 Degrees and the rest were unaffected - Although I'm not exactly sure how that may occur - There may be an awful lot out there that no one knows about.

I'm sure in time that if there are more of them out there that they will be found and probably end up on E-Bay. lol

[RobJ 0]

Well I don't know about you guys but I think these post 2008 issues sure are making modern coins more interesting by far, and i'm not even an error collector, but I shall be on the look out for one of these!

I agree with you Sylvester, it certainly makes it a lot more interesting and a lot more fun when checking the coins in your change.

Perhaps I am becoming overly cynical in my older years, but it has crossed my mind several times that the 20p 'Mule' was not an error at all.

If you think about it this was the first occasion in many years that we had a new set of coins issued that featured a completely new design across the various Denominations between 1p to £1.

It strikes me that the Royal Mint would want to get people looking at the new Designs on our everday coins - Especially with the mixed reaction from some people when the new Designs were first unvailed - So what better way than to have a major 'Error' with one of them.

Although the Royal Mint are very efficient in mass producing coins to a incredibly high standard, incidents of errors can and do sometimes happen, so it may very well have been a genuine error one someones part.

One thing that is for certain however, is that it certainly had a lot of people very closely looking at the new Designs of our everyday coins!

[scott 144]

only because these 2008's quality is poor

i have rotation errors on 1860 halfpenny (BB) and an irish penny from 1990's lol

[Sylvester 15]

Perhaps I am becoming overly cynical in my older years, but it has crossed my mind several times that the 20p 'Mule' was not an error at all.

I am inclined to think this myself, but when I look at if from another perspective I'm not so sure I am entirely sure what to think.

You may well be right, it may well have been an excellent opportunity to garner great interest. However, when you think the mint isn't actually making any profit out of such 'errors' since they aren't packaging them, nor selling them. And their reputation is based upon the final product they deliver, lots of errors are surely bad for business?

In reply to Scott, I have to say that it goes back further than 2008, quality seems to have been on the decline (at least on the 20p front) since 2004. The designs still aren't striking up properly, I do wonder how much of this is due to having more detailed designs or whether it's to do with the lower relief. If you note both the obverse and reverse relief of all the denominations have been reduced. Our designs roughly resemble where the USA designs found themselves in c.1994. Spaghetti hair. Look at a 2007 2p and a 2009 2p, note how the design's depth is brought across to the viewer. In 2007 it was through relief (not a lot to be sure, much less than the Machin portrait), look at the 2009 and you'll see the details of depth are brought out more by a lot of extra lines and less by relief, the Queen's portrait is flatter, especially the cheek.

Dies can last longer with lower relief, but I also think dies are being used to a much more advanced state of wear, looking at all the stress marks, missing punctuation (caused by blocked dies) and unclear lettering evident on some issues.

[Sylvester 15]

Actually I've had a thought, or rather a prediction, the strike on the 2009s (especially the obverse) is so soft that I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't a fair few turning up sans punctuation marks.

[RobJ 0]

I am inclined to think this myself, but when I look at if from another perspective I'm not so sure I am entirely sure what to think.

You may well be right, it may well have been an excellent opportunity to garner great interest. However, when you think the mint isn't actually making any profit out of such 'errors' since they aren't packaging them, nor selling them. And their reputation is based upon the final product they deliver, lots of errors are surely bad for business?

Very valid points Sylvester.

I think truth be told we may never know if it were accidental on behalf of the Royal Mint or not.

[Sylvester 15]

A fortunate accident? Certainly gone in their favour, you'd have to agree.

Not so sure any mess up with the new steel 5p, 10p will go in their favour though, especially if it causes headaches to the vending machine industry.

[RobJ 0]

A fortunate accident? Certainly gone in their favour, you'd have to agree.

Indeed!

Not so sure any mess up with the new steel 5p, 10p will go in their favour though, especially if it causes headaches to the vending machine industry.

The bigger problem that I think that the Royal Mint will face with the new Nickel Plated Steel 5p and 10p coins is getting the plating process right. If they do not, it will not be good for them at all.

As for the Vending Machine Industry, the answer is simple. Do not allow the Vending Machines to accept 5p or 10p Coins.

I know that may sound very blasé, but to me it makes a lot more sense than having to spend a fortune to create new machines that can deal with these new coins and having software written for existing machines to be able to use them.

Instead just have the Software updated in existing machines to not allow 5p or 10p coins.

[Sylvester 15]

As for the Vending Machine Industry, the answer is simple. Do not allow the Vending Machines to accept 5p or 10p Coins.

Entirely, that would be the most practical solution.

There is one other point which I think may be overlooked, and it certainly has by the euro and that is the problem of nickel and allergic reactions. See here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel#Toxicity

It so happens that the euro coins (or some of them) exceed this safe amount (as probably do our coins, but our coins were issued long before such things were thought about). The case for nickel may not prove a problem as far as alloys go, the nickel being bound in. If you think about cupro-nickel it's 75% Cu and 25% Ni.

The problem could be that if the mint use pure nickel to plate the new coins that's got to be in excess of the legal European amount? Anyone with a nickel allergy would probably have issues here. Would the Royal Mint be liable if it did cause a wave of reactions?

Just a thought, afterall I am no chemist.

The only alternative would be to plate them with cupro-nickel (if possible).

[RobJ 0]

There is one other point which I think may be overlooked, and it certainly has by the euro and that is the problem of nickel and allergic reactions. See here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel#Toxicity

It so happens that the euro coins (or some of them) exceed this safe amount (as probably do our coins, but our coins were issued long before such things were thought about). The case for nickel may not prove a problem as far as alloys go, the nickel being bound in. If you think about cupro-nickel it's 75% Cu and 25% Ni.

The problem could be that if the mint use pure nickel to plate the new coins that's got to be in excess of the legal European amount? Anyone with a nickel allergy would probably have issues here. Would the Royal Mint be liable if it did cause a wave of reactions?

Just a thought, afterall I am no chemist.

That certainly is an interesting point that you raise there.

I would think that the Royal Mint would have carried out extensive research into this matter before and during the process of creating these new coins.

I would also think that they would have to adhere too and be bound to any Legislation pertaining to Nickel content that may be of a hazard to the population at large.

As to any liability regarding a reaction from the coins against the Royal Mint, I have no idea.

The only alternative would be to plate them with cupro-nickel (if possible).

Or they could just have left things as they were. lol

[SionGilbey 1]

A fortunate accident? Certainly gone in their favour, you'd have to agree.

Indeed!

Not so sure any mess up with the new steel 5p, 10p will go in their favour though, especially if it causes headaches to the vending machine industry.

The bigger problem that I think that the Royal Mint will face with the new Nickel Plated Steel 5p and 10p coins is getting the plating process right. If they do not, it will not be good for them at all.

As for the Vending Machine Industry, the answer is simple. Do not allow the Vending Machines to accept 5p or 10p Coins.

I know that may sound very blasé, but to me it makes a lot more sense than having to spend a fortune to create new machines that can deal with these new coins and having software written for existing machines to be able to use them.

Instead just have the Software updated in existing machines to not allow 5p or 10p coins.

I quite agree!

5 and 10ps are basically useless in the vending machines anyway - they're worthless these days.

[RobJ 0]

I quite agree!

5 and 10ps are basically useless in the vending machines anyway - they're worthless these days.

The downside that I see is that if the Vending Machine Industry do decide to stop their machines using 5p and 10p coins, is that it will be the Consumer that will pay for it, as all of the prices will need to be adjusted and rounded up. As they are very unlikely to drop the price of, for example, a Chocolate Bar from 55p to 50p, instead it will go up to 60p!

Also as the Vending Machines would not be giving 5p or 10p coins in their change any longer, prices as a whole would have to be reworked to allow the change given to be a minimum of 20p.

It's all a bit of a headache really!

I'm sure that things will be sorted out one way or another eventually. lol

[Peckris 579]

If you think about it this was the first occasion in many years that we had a new set of coins issued that featured a completely new design across the various Denominations between 1p to £1.

Beautifully worded. That's exactly what we got. A new design across all the denominations ... a bit on each (Jeez, decent coin designers must be hard to find these days )

[Peckris 579]

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