How much literature do members have and use?

[Boomstick 0]

I've the same first three as RobJ, which have been great for the beginner I am. Any recommendations on a good book for silver half crowns?

[Boomstick 0]

I'm guessing ESC is the best start point, looking at the above posts?

[argentumandcoins 70]

I'm guessing ESC is the best start point, looking at the above posts?

ESC is pretty much your starting and finishing point for the milled series. Davies is a more specialist look at silver coinage but only from the recoinage of George III in 1816. If you can afford it you should buy both.

[RobJ 0]

Oh I think I picked that one up a few years ago! Does it have nice photographs on a black background? If it's the one I'm thinking of, it makes a few glaring errors, the main one not distinguishing between bronze and copper dated 1860, and mixing up the illustrations for the two types. But as you say, a fascinating read.

That's the one!

Yes, I did notice that there were a few mistakes in there as well.

I think that it is handy little guide as it gives you an idea on the Mintage figures. As they are taken from the 'Coin Yearbook' it will save me having to carry that around with me as it contains the same information.

I think that is a great little Booklet!

[declanwmagee 122]

I'm guessing ESC is the best start point, looking at the above posts?

ESC is pretty much your starting and finishing point for the milled series. Davies is a more specialist look at silver coinage but only from the recoinage of George III in 1816. If you can afford it you should buy both.

My Davies just arrived and I've spent a marvellous weekend restructuring my coin database as a result. I've had ESC for a while but Davies is a different ball game. I must add though, Mr Groom has done a far better job, and I'll always choose his book over Davies for 20th Century stuff.

[Peckris 579]

Oh I think I picked that one up a few years ago! Does it have nice photographs on a black background? If it's the one I'm thinking of, it makes a few glaring errors, the main one not distinguishing between bronze and copper dated 1860, and mixing up the illustrations for the two types. But as you say, a fascinating read.

That's the one!

Yes, I did notice that there were a few mistakes in there as well.

I think that it is handy little guide as it gives you an idea on the Mintage figures. As they are taken from the 'Coin Yearbook' it will save me having to carry that around with me as it contains the same information.

I think that is a great little Booklet!

Yes, and a nice little historical document to boot

[RobJ 0]

Yes, and a nice little historical document to boot

Indeed. I find anything like that infinitely fascinating.

[Rob 3,152]

Many thanks to all who have taken part in the poll at the beginning of this thread over the past 2 or 3 weeks.

As expected, the usual suspects contributed, though a handful of regulars on this forum were notable for their absence. I was hoping for a greater contribution from less experienced collectors, as this would have given an insight into their perception of the hobby, the obstacles they face and the decisions that have to be made when looking for a field or series to collect - all things which long term collectors have mostly forgotten. Serious collectors have obviously got the persistence to look for the information they require, but without sufficient knowledge of where to find the reference material I can see that the easy option is to do nothing, and longer term to lose interest. Clearly the easiest way to get people engrossed in this or any other hobby is to have material at your fingertips which you can refer to or read for pleasure. Perhaps a list of material could be pinned to the top of a forum or two (like a read this first thread) whereby people can know what books to look for. Many visitors are clearly casual ones looking for a single piece of info, but a handful are, or convert to longer term collectors.

Looking at the various posts I get the impression that people are on the whole not too dissatisfied with the books that are available. I know we can only use the material at our disposal, but there was no obvious call for a new reference in any one particular field with the best material for the job known to the longer term collector (unsuprisingly). The only revision that has been mentioned in this or other threads is one for farthings. Maybe the farthing collectors would like to give ColinG a nudge in that direction for a future project given Colin Cooke would require a medium and a ouija board to finish his work.

If anyone is able to identify a section of the hobby that is inadequately catered for, please speak up, as there might be sufficient enthusiasm to fill that hole.

[argentumandcoins 70]

Many thanks to all who have taken part in the poll at the beginning of this thread over the past 2 or 3 weeks.

As expected, the usual suspects contributed, though a handful of regulars on this forum were notable for their absence. I was hoping for a greater contribution from less experienced collectors, as this would have given an insight into their perception of the hobby, the obstacles they face and the decisions that have to be made when looking for a field or series to collect - all things which long term collectors have mostly forgotten. Serious collectors have obviously got the persistence to look for the information they require, but without sufficient knowledge of where to find the reference material I can see that the easy option is to do nothing, and longer term to lose interest. Clearly the easiest way to get people engrossed in this or any other hobby is to have material at your fingertips which you can refer to or read for pleasure. Perhaps a list of material could be pinned to the top of a forum or two (like a read this first thread) whereby people can know what books to look for. Many visitors are clearly casual ones looking for a single piece of info, but a handful are, or convert to longer term collectors.

Looking at the various posts I get the impression that people are on the whole not too dissatisfied with the books that are available. I know we can only use the material at our disposal, but there was no obvious call for a new reference in any one particular field with the best material for the job known to the longer term collector (unsuprisingly). The only revision that has been mentioned in this or other threads is one for farthings. Maybe the farthing collectors would like to give ColinG a nudge in that direction for a future project given Colin Cooke would require a medium and a ouija board to finish his work.

If anyone is able to identify a section of the hobby that is inadequately catered for, please speak up, as there might be sufficient enthusiasm to fill that hole.

If you can find somebody up to the task Rob.... Peck needs to be re-written. There have been so many discoveries since the rapid expansion of the internet (you can even get it on a phone now apparently) that it is almost totally out of date.

In fact in truth I think the only areas that have been kept in order are Bun Pennies courtesy of Michael Gouby and 20th Century bronze and silver by somebody on here!

Sadly there is no major work on the earlier milled silver since ESC (Davies only starts with the 1816 recoinage) and as we both know there are oceans of new discoveries in all of the series that are not recorded anywhere.

Sadly I have neither time nor ability to mend any of the broken areas!

[Hussulo 6]

"You can never have too much information! "

I agree Rob. I've read most of my books page to page a few times and enjoy buying new ones to read.

Though I am far behind your collection and reference material.

[1949threepence 3,367]

Literally just discovered this thread. Not sure how I previously managed to overlook it, so sorry Rob, if I was one of your forum regular absentees.

I've not got that many books as, like Tom, my numismatic interest is perhaps rather restricted. I do have Derek's grading book as well as Dave Groome's 20th century silver book. I also have Freeman's 1985 version, Spinks coins of England (which I hardly ever look at) and a number of coin yearbooks. I did accumulate a few second hand coin books in the early to mid 1990's but when I left home in 2000, my Mother accidentally threw them out. Fortunately I had already taken my collection the previous day !!!

I'm definitely going to purchase a Gouby on the bronze penny and Dave Groome's 20th century bronze. I'd also like to get a Peck, although they are horrendously expensive and I'm not sure just how useful they are these days, considering their cost.

I do use the internet, but for detailed study I prefer reading from an actual page, rather than a screen.

[Peckris 579]

Literally just discovered this thread. Not sure how I previously managed to overlook it, so sorry Rob, if I was one of your forum regular absentees.

I've not got that many books as, like Tom, my numismatic interest is perhaps rather restricted. I do have Derek's grading book as well as Dave Groome's 20th century silver book. I also have Freeman's 1985 version, Spinks coins of England (which I hardly ever look at) and a number of coin yearbooks. I did accumulate a few second hand coin books in the early to mid 1990's but when I left home in 2000, my Mother accidentally threw them out. Fortunately I had already taken my collection the previous day !!!

I'm definitely going to purchase a Gouby on the bronze penny and Dave Groome's 20th century bronze. I'd also like to get a Peck, although they are horrendously expensive and I'm not sure just how useful they are these days, considering their cost.

I do use the internet, but for detailed study I prefer reading from an actual page, rather than a screen.

There's no substitute for Boulton and Taylor output, i.e. anything to do with the Soho Mint, plus all those 19h Century patterns and illustrations. Agreed, he's less useful for (currency) bronze, but for copper he's still essential, I'd say.

[Rob 3,152]

I'd also like to get a Peck, although they are horrendously expensive and I'm not sure just how useful they are these days, considering their cost.

Usefulness has never had a unit cost. You either need it or you don't.

[1949threepence 3,367]

OK, thanks Rob. Good points taken on board.

[SionGilbey 1]

I don't have a copy of Peck but the National Library up the road does... because it has a copy of everything ever published in Britain.

[Rob 3,152]

If you can find somebody up to the task Rob.... Peck needs to be re-written. There have been so many discoveries since the rapid expansion of the internet (you can even get it on a phone now apparently) that it is almost totally out of date.

In fact in truth I think the only areas that have been kept in order are Bun Pennies courtesy of Michael Gouby and 20th Century bronze and silver by somebody on here!

Sadly there is no major work on the earlier milled silver since ESC (Davies only starts with the 1816 recoinage) and as we both know there are oceans of new discoveries in all of the series that are not recorded anywhere.

Sadly I have neither time nor ability to mend any of the broken areas!

Right, a partial solution to the question of updated references starts here.

Yesterday I completed the acquisition of all Peter Davies' unsold stock of BSC together with his artwork and notes for varieties not covered in his first edition and I also have the rights to do a second edition. Anyone requiring copies of Davies' work, please contact me.

I think that a more useful initial publication would be an addendum incorporating the recent discoveries together with as large a number of legend or date varieties as possible given the demand for such items. I would restrict it to design differences and punched errors that have been corrected rather than the multitude of varieties arising from refurbished dies (such as double or triple cut letters which I believe are the product of trying to reinforce the die in too hard a state. I would also include patterns produced outside the RM. I would also keep the format previously used as far as possible to give continuity. This would mean that the existing copies of Davies would not become irrelevant as the original book is in any case good for at least 95% of all the coin types covered in the initial publication. Given the number of legend errors that have been corrected I estimate that this would give a book of similar size to the existing volume. The question of whether it should be hard or softback is open to debate. Obviously hardback is preferable because the cover would protect the contents, but this comes at a cost. There is a much greater interest in Davies varieties as a result of auction catalogues including the references in lot descriptions and this should also increase demand for varieties. The problem with references and the level of detail is that each collector has different collecting aims. As it would be impossible to tailor a book to an individual's taste, I feel that all that can be done is to produce as much detailed information as possible, whilst leaving the individual die studies to the specialist who is interested in individual punch identification or double and triple cut letters.

I would not propose to include prices other than to note what an example of a singly recorded variety made at auction as any pricing is applicable only to the date of the sale, and in any case is adequately covered by Spink, CCGB etc. The pricing could be replaced by any notes of interest. I am not going down the rarity route because I don't have access to sufficient collections to make a meaningful assessment.

A similar volume covering early milled prior to the 1816 recoinage is also a possibility as this would expand immensely on the contents of ESC.

Thoughts anybody?

[Hussulo 6]

Hi Rob,

I agree yo have your work cut out for you but it would be a great book to release and being the same size as Peck I would expect you would need to release it as an addition, even if you did re-release a modern copy of Peck.

I would personally prefer it in hardback. It depends how much of the market you want to cater for but to me it sounds like it will be quite an in depth book which probably cater more for the experienced collector who might not be as concerned about the price. Current copies of Peck seem to sell fast even at £100+.

It would be great if you could produce as much detailed information as possible, and then readers could refer to the parts that interests them most. To be honest I don't think you can ever have too much information.

I'm sure you probably have all your bases covered but if I can offer any help in anyway (possibly even financial backing) please ask.

Regards,

Hus

Edited March 17, 2011 by Hussulo

[Rob 3,152]

I hadn't thought about doing Peck. The problem with Peck is the amount of material held in museums. Very often there are no examples available, but if you don't know where the coins are you are on a hiding to nothing. DaveG was able to do his in depth study of 20th century coinage bacause there is so much material around and it is cheap to acquire. Hoovering up adequate quantities of pre-decimal research material is by now financially impossible. Just acquiring the coins for my article on the Weyl patterns cost a 5 figure sum for 14 pieces. The total population is around 100 coins. To get all those not in museums would have cost about £100K at yesterday's prices, more today. It isn't going to happen. That is why I thought I'd start with Davies which has greater depth than ESC, but is modern enough to mean there is a good supply of (and interest in) available material.

[argentumandcoins 70]

Rob, firstly please PM me with the cost of 10 copies of Davies as I could likely shift them from my site.

I agree about the pricing section, totally irrelevant.

Rarity is something which is hard to determine other than the way Michael Gouby did for some eg. 50+ known. Some of the recent discoveries may well be unique until 6 months after publication when another 50 are found by people using the book to check their collections, thus negating the rarity level!

I have a greater interest, from a collecting point of view, in the early milled silver and would welcome an updated ESC, which is now nearly 20 years out of date!

If you need any pics from my stock or collection give me a shout (no, I won't eat into your Royalties)

John.

[Gary 7]

Sorry to go a little off topic here but I keep hearing people refering to Peck as though it is the be and end all reference guide. The full title is "C W Peck, English Copper, Tin and Bronze Coins in the British Museum 1558-1958" and is just as the title suggests, a study of the coins held in the british museum. It is a usefull reference work no doubt especially for Boulton, Taylor and the Soho Mint as Peckris has already stated but is not as comprehensive as other works such as Freeman, Gouby, DaveGs books etc when it comes to general currency coinage. I borrowed a copy once and as a bronze and copper collector, mainly 1799-1970, I found it disappointing. So if you are general collector and thinking about forking out a lot of money for this work I suggest you try to look at a copy first to see if its the right reference work for your needs!

[RLC35 288]

Rob, Your Forum mailbox is full (not accepting messages). Please send me pricing info (to the USA)for the Davies Book, to RLC35@aol.com.

[Rob 3,152]

Sorry to go a little off topic here but I keep hearing people refering to Peck as though it is the be and end all reference guide. The full title is "C W Peck, English Copper, Tin and Bronze Coins in the British Museum 1558-1958" and is just as the title suggests, a study of the coins held in the british museum. It is a usefull reference work no doubt especially for Boulton, Taylor and the Soho Mint as Peckris has already stated but is not as comprehensive as other works such as Freeman, Gouby, DaveGs books etc when it comes to general currency coinage. I borrowed a copy once and as a bronze and copper collector, mainly 1799-1970, I found it disappointing. So if you are general collector and thinking about forking out a lot of money for this work I suggest you try to look at a copy first to see if its the right reference work for your needs!

The title arose in part because the British Museum holds the copyright and the presence of many unique varieties acquired by the BM over the years means that any comprehensive tome will have to use their collection. In many fields their collection is the most comprehensive available for study. He didn't restrict himself to only those in the BM however as his extensive collection of Soho pieces surpassed the BM's and there are also references to examples that were unknown in museum collections. It is just that the BM had the largest overall collection together with provenance details in most instances that facilitated the writing of the book in the first place. Did it drill down into minute die variations? - no. Did it attempt to list all the known dies? - no. What it did do however was to bring together all aspects of numismatic interest by listing proofs, patterns and currency strikings which is usually lacking in most publications. His work on the Soho mint output is a masterpiece. Don't forget there was nothing published in this area prior to his study because anyone who collected base metal coins was considered an oddball prior to the last 50 years.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Rob

[Peter 615]

Sorry to go a little off topic here but I keep hearing people refering to Peck as though it is the be and end all reference guide. The full title is "C W Peck, English Copper, Tin and Bronze Coins in the British Museum 1558-1958" and is just as the title suggests, a study of the coins held in the british museum. It is a usefull reference work no doubt especially for Boulton, Taylor and the Soho Mint as Peckris has already stated but is not as comprehensive as other works such as Freeman, Gouby, DaveGs books etc when it comes to general currency coinage. I borrowed a copy once and as a bronze and copper collector, mainly 1799-1970, I found it disappointing. So if you are general collector and thinking about forking out a lot of money for this work I suggest you try to look at a copy first to see if its the right reference work for your needs!

How very dare you...OK pennies have moved on but 1/4d's have had nothing since.

Peck is a building block.I don't use it every day but it is a resource I couldn't do without.

Mr Peck I salute you.

[Gary 7]

Firstly, I was not putting down Pecks work but mearly trying to warn people off paying lots of money for a publication that may not fit thier needs. I remember when I started collecting, funds were limited and I concentrated mainly on bronze pennies. Pecks name came up frequently and I started looking for a copy as I got the impression that it was the be all publication for bronze but I could not afford one. Years later, after Freeman and Gouby, I had the good fortune to meet someone who had a copy which he agreed to loan me. I got to know him through the internet and ebay but he lives miles away and I have never met him face to face. Anyway he said he would post his copy to me and I could keep it for as long as I wanted. I waited eagerly for Peck to arrive which it did a couple of days latter, in pristine condition, as new. It looked as though it had never been used and I was nearly afraid to open the pages of the great book in case they got creased. As I have already said I was disappointed, I learnt nothing new from it for my particular collecting area which is mainly post 1799. It was however, an interesting read and I kept it for about four weeks, ironing the pages after every use!

The title arose in part because the British Museum holds the copyright and the presence of many unique varieties acquired by the BM over the years means that any comprehensive tome will have to use their collection. In many fields their collection is the most comprehensive available for study. He didn't restrict himself to only those in the BM however as his extensive collection of Soho pieces surpassed the BM's and there are also references to examples that were unknown in museum collections. It is just that the BM had the largest overall collection together with provenance details in most instances that facilitated the writing of the book in the first place. Did it drill down into minute die variations? - no. Did it attempt to list all the known dies? - no. What it did do however was to bring together all aspects of numismatic interest by listing proofs, patterns and currency strikings which is usually lacking in most publications. His work on the Soho mint output is a masterpiece. Don't forget there was nothing published in this area prior to his study because anyone who collected base metal coins was considered an oddball prior to the last 50 years.

The title is confusing then. I did not know he also used his own collection and I agree with you about his work on the Soho mint, pages and pages of it. Unfortunatly, most of us do not have the means to collect Patterns or Proofs (pre 1900)

How very dare you...OK pennies have moved on but 1/4d's have had nothing since.

Peck is a building block.I don't use it every day but it is a resource I couldn't do without.

Mr Peck I salute you.

See above Peter, no disrespect meant towards Mr Peck. As for farthings I think the internet sites of Colin Cooke and ColinGs (aboutfarthings) have done a little to correct that What about the poor cousin, the halfpenny?

[Peckris 579]

Rob, Your Forum mailbox is full (not accepting messages). Please send me pricing info (to the USA)for the Davies Book, to RLC35@aol.com.

Rob, I also sent you a DM about Davies (one copy, for me) but I didn't get any 'mailbox full' message? (Just the normal 'Sent' message). In case you didn't get it, would you DM me here, or at least send me an email address to contact you about it? Thanks!