1919KN Penny

[argentumandcoins 70]

Pictures below of a 1919KN Penny in mid grade, WOW you all say!

I noticed that the diameter was slightly smaller than normal (30.08mm) and it also, obviously, weighs light at 8.8gms.

The edge of the coin does not appear to have been machined, but there is what is best described as a fracture line on the circumference showing smooth at the reverse edge and as a series of vertical lines at the obverse edge (almost like milling).

The edge probably doesn't show up too well.

Anybody got any experience or knowledge of the validity or otherwise?

No wild guesses please Dave!

[azda 979]

The one i sold recently John was also shy on the dia and weighed 9 gram, never noticed anything on the rim though, probably because i didn't stop to look. The beads on the one i had were falling into the rim though

[Gary 7]

The two that I have weigh in at 9.04 and 9.41 gramms. both are 30.7mm in Diameter. Neither have an irregular edge like your example. Sorry John, cant help other than that.

[Gary 7]

looking at your pic of the sideways view, it looks as if the coin has been shaved either intentionally or by accident. It seems to have slight ridges around the edge as though someone has scrapped a sharp edge around it.

[Colin G. 147]

Definitely looks like it has been machined/tampered with at the edge, you might have expected this on a fake Mule to try and cover the join, but does not make sense on this one, unless it's just some kid tampering with a coin, I know I have shot, drilled, grinded a few in my youth

[argentumandcoins 70]

Another edge picture.

It can sit in the oddities tray along with the milled edges and 1933 pennies!

Edited February 6, 2011 by argentumandcoins

[Bronze & Copper Collector 413]

I've got a few of the milled edge specimens.... All from the mid 1890's...

I'll check my 1919 KN's when I get home.....

[azda 979]

And i've got a plonker in eBay DEMANDING his Money back for the one i sold. My auctions state No returns As i describe accurately and make good enough pictures to See all details.

So now he's started a dispute saying its a fake in order to try and get His cash back, its only because he doesn't like it, but He likes it enough to have it for over a week. So i've basically said show me evidence that it is a fake and then I'll refund, not until.

[Colin G. 147]

And i've got a plonker in eBay DEMANDING his Money back for the one i sold. My auctions state No returns As i describe accurately and make good enough pictures to See all details.

So now he's started a dispute saying its a fake in order to try and get His cash back, its only because he doesn't like it, but He likes it enough to have it for over a week. So i've basically said show me evidence that it is a fake and then I'll refund, not until.

Dave if he has paid via paypal the emphasis will be on you to prove the case. If you want to stand your ground make sure you have no funds in your paypal account, and no link to your bank account from Paypal, because they will remove the funds and then not return it until the dispute is resolved. You will also probably lose your paypal account.

I know it may seem unfair, but it is usually easier to offer a refund once the coin is returned, and just re-sell, you will get your fees back if you dispute through Ebay and Paypal

[azda 979]

He's had the coin in hand for over a Week now Colin and then he starts that BS, unfortunately i'm an Arues and one of our traits is stubborness, so i'm going to ride this One out and See what happens

[Colin G. 147]

He's had the coin in hand for over a Week now Colin and then he starts that BS, unfortunately i'm an Arues and one of our traits is stubborness, so i'm going to ride this One out and See what happens

Exactly the response I expected I reckon I must be getting to know you. Good luck!!

[azda 979]

My grandmother was worse than me lol. The question is, whats the point if eBay having a No returns button if people dispute something, its pointless

Edited February 7, 2011 by azda

[Cerbera100 0]

Particularly when through ebay and paypal, the seller has absolutely no protection! They charge us damned near 20% of what an item sells for, and then promptly hand the rest back to the buyer as soon as they put their hand up!

One case I had, I sent a £20 double-florin to Canada, and the buyer refused to pay for insured post, so with appropriate message in 'hand' I duly sent the item off 1st class... 4 weeks later I get an email from paypal saying that they had refunded the buyer because they hadnt received it (ok there was an email before, but I was on holiday so didnt see it!). I sent them the message saying 'no insurance please' and they still refused to give me my money! Worse, a very similar (or identical?!) 4s turned up on the same guys account only about a month later!

I'd looked for a reasonable alternative, but dont have time to research it! Welcome any suggestions!

[Cerbera100 0]

Sorry John, we appear to have hijacked your thread!

[azda 979]

Well now he's CLAIMING he spoke to Michael Gouby and Steve Lockett who both said it was fake. Now i have to be honest here, if i were starting a dispute i'd put that CLAIM into the very first email when going through the dispute, he didn't even mention it until i said something 5 emails later. This dude is pulling a fast one cos (in my personal opinion) he feels its a risky coin and he doesn't actually know.

So i've emailed Michael Gouby and just asked if he'd heard of any fakes coming out of China or anywhere of 1919KNs if he says no then he's obviously bullshitting. He also stated he didn't see a 1919 that good in his 30 years of collectiing/selling so my next line will be "if you have'nt then how come the Chinese got a good one then"?

[Peter 615]

Luckily for me the Misses has just bought me a 1717 farthing in EF and let me jump on Kelley Brooke for a while(it would be swift)

Ebay is as good as it reckons...top class....buyers and sellers be aware.

[azda 979]

Well now he's CLAIMING he spoke to Michael Gouby and Steve Lockett who both said it was fake. Now i have to be honest here, if i were starting a dispute i'd put that CLAIM into the very first email when going through the dispute, he didn't even mention it until i said something 5 emails later. This dude is pulling a fast one cos (in my personal opinion) he feels its a risky coin and he doesn't actually know.

So i've emailed Michael Gouby and just asked if he'd heard of any fakes coming out of China or anywhere of 1919KNs if he says no then he's obviously bullshitting. He also stated he didn't see a 1919 that good in his 30 years of collectiing/selling so my next line will be "if you have'nt then how come the Chinese got a good one then"?

So here is Michael Goubys response to my question:

This is the 2nd time within a few days I have been asked that question.

“Have 1919 KN pennies been faked ?â€

The answer is I have not heard or seen a fake of that coin – as yet.

Which is my answer to you as it was to him !

BUT that does not mean that they have not been faked !

The Chinese have made fake 1826 & I believe 1827 pennies. There is nothing to stop them making copper or now bronze coins, if they like.

They are brilliant masters of buying an original coin and making proper steel die copies from that coin and then making near perfect coin copies from those dies !

If in doubt send the coin to the Royal Mint !

All the best

Michael

So why this guy is telling porkies i've no idea

[scott 144]

where did the KN mint get the flans from? because some countries were using coins of similar size but sometimes slightly smaller (france for example)

[argentumandcoins 70]

where did the KN mint get the flans from? because some countries were using coins of similar size but sometimes slightly smaller (france for example)

It had crossed my mind that Kings Norton may have been producing for other countries at that time on smaller blanks.

I suppose that Michael is right and the RM would have to be the first port of call.

[VickySilver 836]

I am certainly no Gouby and have seen only the pictures but can not see a problem based on them with this picture; have already posted my comments on this coin. Think you did well, and he may be one of those troublesome 1%. Hang in there Dave.

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

I'll just bring this fellow to your attention as well;

http://www.coinauthentication.co.uk/

I haven't used him, so can't speak from experience, but....

[argentumandcoins 70]

I'll just bring this fellow to your attention as well;

http://www.coinauthentication.co.uk/

I haven't used him, so can't speak from experience, but....

I used Robert for a report on the 1861 Halfcrown that I have. I don't know what more he would be able to say about my 1919 KN as I know it is undersized and underweight and I think Daves is the same.

If anybody would like to see the report to decide whether or not to use Robert I will gladly forward a copy via email.

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Out of interest, John, do you know how he charges his time ?

I have a potentially controversial off metal strike that I might want an opinion on.

And yes, I know I should ask him myself, but what's the point of having online coin mates, if you can't gossip ?

[azda 979]

And an Email from rendel Ingram on the Subjekt

Not really. Its highly unlikely to be a fake. Pennies got so much circulation so can  weigh as little as 8.5g.

And the Guy who bought it is a dealer

Edited February 8, 2011 by azda

[argentumandcoins 70]

Out of interest, John, do you know how he charges his time ?

I have a potentially controversial off metal strike that I might want an opinion on.

And yes, I know I should ask him myself, but what's the point of having online coin mates, if you can't gossip ?

No problem! Below was his initial reply to my enquiry;

Hello John,

My charges are are 3% of the insurance value with a minimum charge of £30 plus return postage. In this case I assume the minimum charge will apply. I have attached my submission form to this reply, if you wish to use my service you should send the coin with the completed form and the fee to the address on the form. According to Rayner in his "English Silver Coinage since 1649" a couple of well worn 1861 crowns have surfaced over the years. The state of your coin may mean it is not possible to reach a definitive conclusion about its authentication but I would try my best.

With best regards,

Robert Matthews