1797 cartwheel twopence

[Nick 329]

What would be the approximate grade (and hence value) of this large lump of copper? It's no wonder it got the nickname cartwheel.

[Nick 329]

What would be the approximate grade (and hence value) of this large lump of copper? It's no wonder it got the nickname cartwheel.

[Accumulator 52]

What would be the approximate grade (and hence value) of this large lump of copper? It's no wonder it got the nickname cartwheel.

I hesitate to say this, and it may just be the photos, but the coin feels wrong. I'm assuming it actually looks copper coloured in hand? Colour aside, the fields have a pitted look to them, usually associated with casting. The edge looks too rounded for the wear to other areas. The lettering appears too clean, given the apparent wear to other areas. Usually the recesses of the letters have some fill in coins of this condition, but here the recesses are clean.

It's hard without the coin in hand and I appreciate that scanning can produce strange results so I may be wrong.

[Accumulator 52]

I managed not to answer the question! So, reservations apart, I would say EF and although value in Spink 2010 states £400, similar coins on eBay are around £200.

[Chris Perkins 228]

More like GVF really, some would say NEF. For EF on those you'd expect perhaps the last remnants of lustre (if you're lucky) and much better sharper squared off edges with less marks as well and just a little more detail. The thick rims protect the designs to some degree, which is why they often look very good. Cartwheels are hard to grade, I've always found that!

And the price drops quickly down the grades, as you've probably noticed.

No reason to beleive it isn't genuine though.

[SionGilbey 1]

GVF.

[Peter 615]

It has got a few dings which isn't unusal on these big lumps of copper. Collectors coins GB books this in VF @ £55.This is what a dealer will sell for.Try selling one to dealer

[Accumulator 52]

Plenty of dings, I agree, but virtually all the detail seems to be there. Maybe I'm scratching around but what about the patch in the field below the chin on the obverse? I understand that later strikes of these coins were made with the original dies in a slightly corroded condition. It just feels different to me. I'll shut up now

Edited February 16, 2011 by Accumulator

[Nick 329]

Thanks all. I agree that the pictures don't really reflect what the coin looks like in hand. I think the light source was too strong. I may take some more photos in softer light or natural daylight to see if that helps.

Seems like GVF is a fair grade for this.

Nick

[Nick 329]

Plenty of dings, I agree, but virtually all the detail seems to be there. Maybe I'm scratching around but what about the patch in the field below the chin on the obverse? I understand that later strikes of these coins were made with the original dies in a slightly corroded condition. It just feels different to me. I'll shut up now

I can see why you say that. In general the coin looks brown, but at certain angles it has an almost silvery hue - which seems a little odd. Put it this way, if somebody asked me what I thought it was made of, copper isn't top of the list. Unfortunately I don't have anything to compare it to.

Anybody know what one of these would normally weigh?

[Accumulator 52]

Anybody know what one of these would normally weigh?

I just weighed mine at 56.47g

[Nick 329]

Anybody know what one of these would normally weigh?

I just weighed mine at 56.47g

Thanks. This one weighs in at 56.59g which sounds about right.

[Peckris 579]

I managed not to answer the question! So, reservations apart, I would say EF and although value in Spink 2010 states £400, similar coins on eBay are around £200.

I'd agree with that grading - viritually no wear at all.

Thanks all. I agree that the pictures don't really reflect what the coin looks like in hand. I think the light source was too strong. I may take some more photos in softer light or natural daylight to see if that helps.

Seems like GVF is a fair grade for this.

Nick

See above!

Plenty of dings, I agree, but virtually all the detail seems to be there. Maybe I'm scratching around but what about the patch in the field below the chin on the obverse? I understand that later strikes of these coins were made with the original dies in a slightly corroded condition. It just feels different to me. I'll shut up now

I can see why you say that. In general the coin looks brown, but at certain angles it has an almost silvery hue - which seems a little odd. Put it this way, if somebody asked me what I thought it was made of, copper isn't top of the list. Unfortunately I don't have anything to compare it to.

Anybody know what one of these would normally weigh?

In your pictures it looks COMPLETELY silvery, and that was my first thought : "Aha, a cartwheel dipped to look like a silvered proof". The colour doesn't look right at all. Can you take a daylight photo and upload that? (you only need one face, just to check the colour).

[Nick 329]

I managed not to answer the question! So, reservations apart, I would say EF and although value in Spink 2010 states £400, similar coins on eBay are around £200.

I'd agree with that grading - viritually no wear at all.

Sound more promising.

Here is a picture taken on a sunny window sill. The only silvery hue apparent is from the fields (more noticeable on the obverse) when angled directly towards the light. I will try and capture this in a photo.

[SionGilbey 1]

Yes, that looks a lot more real now.

However I'm sticking with GVF.

[argentumandcoins 70]

Plenty of dings, I agree, but virtually all the detail seems to be there. Maybe I'm scratching around but what about the patch in the field below the chin on the obverse? I understand that later strikes of these coins were made with the original dies in a slightly corroded condition. It just feels different to me. I'll shut up now

I can see why you say that. In general the coin looks brown, but at certain angles it has an almost silvery hue - which seems a little odd. Put it this way, if somebody asked me what I thought it was made of, copper isn't top of the list. Unfortunately I don't have anything to compare it to.

Anybody know what one of these would normally weigh?

2 ounces and the cartwheel penny 1 ounce.

[Peckris 579]

I managed not to answer the question! So, reservations apart, I would say EF and although value in Spink 2010 states £400, similar coins on eBay are around £200.

I'd agree with that grading - viritually no wear at all.

Sound more promising.

Here is a picture taken on a sunny window sill. The only silvery hue apparent is from the fields (more noticeable on the obverse) when angled directly towards the light. I will try and capture this in a photo.

Yes that looks much more like the normal colour and has lost the silvery hue of your top pictures.